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[sr5] SS Weapons?

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WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #30 on: <04-02-14/1138:33> »
Yet many .17 HMR rounds walk through basic kevlar and 1/4" steel plates. I find it hard to believe that they won't penetrate feathers unless it's being fired from a pistol. The key to high velocity, small calibers, is bullet design. You have to have the right core, or it doesn't do squat. Look at the difference between the military loaded 5.7mm and the civilian loaded 5.7mm. Keep in mind that technically the military loaded 5.7mm rounds are legal to own as a civilian. FN choses not to sale them to civilians, but they aren't classified as Armor Piercing by the ATF's standards.

Where are the Deputy's stats at that you are talking about? The deputy from SR4: " The Deputy is a very reliable revolver favored by rough retro-types for its wild-west style. Its bullets are less devastating than those of the Ruger Super Warhawk." It's a revolver.

One of the big pushes for the 5.7mm is the simple ballistic pattern of a small high velocity round that relies on tumbling for its damage. It doesn't overpenetrate. It penetrates hard surfaces great, but it generally won't punch through a soft target. That's a big deal when it comes to firearms in an urban setting. The box of truth shows penetration tests for many common round against drywall. Almost any traditional handgun round will go through you house unless it finds another target (furniture, stud, family member, etc.). Smaller rounds like the 5.7 are designed to ruble when they exit hard surfaces (or enter soft surfaces). Civilian 5.7 rounds tend to tumble into the floor after 3-4 sheets of drywall (two walls) compared to the. Even .22 LR tends to penetrate through 6 layers of drywall (3 walls).

As armor advances, heavier rounds are less attractive unless it is a military weapons designed to penetrate heavy armors. By the time you increase the effectiveness of a round to penetrate the newer armors, it yields a horrible risk of collateral damage on misses.

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a longer barrel *would* make up for the difference, if that were the case, but it's not.
There is simply no way to know that. Even if SR artwork were 100% accurate, how do you know that the picture is a standard Predator and not a troll modified or high power chambered predator? We don't know. The bottom line is that there is a way to explain the difference. It doesn't contradict the setting. Of course, we could always just say no, because we prefer our house rules.

As for multiple barrel lengths. Sure most revolvers are available in multiple barrel lengths. The game doesn't have rules for that, so we have to assume that the stats are for a standard. As a revolver guy, when I think "heavy revolver" I don't think 3" or 6" barrel. I think 8" like my Python or 9 and 5/8" like my grandpa's Anaconda. A six inch revolver is a normal revolver. A three inch revolver is a tiny revolver. Less than that you get into snubnose.

Namikaze

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« Reply #31 on: <04-02-14/1149:11> »
Annnnnnd now we're in the deep end of the semantics pool.  Let's just drop the argument over semantics.
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The other Bandit

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« Reply #32 on: <04-02-14/1240:57> »
Agreed. Its a weird and tedious topic, but sometimes its nice to hear other oppinions on it.

Now I am going back to my other project and try to make sense of machine guns that weigh half a ton and only have a range of 90 meters in Battletech   :o
(and dont get me started on the missing difference between autocannons, cannons and mortars plus energy weapons need to be balanced.... also clans.... ::))
« Last Edit: <04-02-14/1243:16> by The other Bandit »

Reaver

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« Reply #33 on: <04-02-14/1246:01> »
Agreed. Its a weird and tedious topic, but sometimes its nice to hear other oppinions on it.

Now I am going back to my other project and try to make sense of machine guns that weigh half a ton and only have a range of 90 meters in Battletech   :o
(and dont get me started on the missing difference between autocannons, cannons and mortars plus energy weapons need to be balanced.... also clans.... ::))

OR....


you could just play MechWarrior online and let them do all the crunching for you :P
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Medicineman

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« Reply #34 on: <04-02-14/1354:52> »
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Now I am going back to my other project and try to make sense of machine guns that weigh half a ton and only have a range of 90 meters in Battletech
Its because the Mech don't shoot MGs, they throw them ;)

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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #35 on: <04-02-14/1507:52> »
Sure Mechs do, they do 1 damage but are much more effective against infantry.  Doing a battletech tabletop dance. 

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #36 on: <04-02-14/1945:34> »
Annnnnnd now we're in the deep end of the semantics pool.  Let's just drop the argument over semantics.

Agreed.  I've said my peace and I'm comfortable with that.  I don't accept WellsIDidIt's arguments are true, and we're just going in circles now.

martinchaen

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« Reply #37 on: <04-04-14/0920:38> »
JimmyCrisis
You'll find that that happens a lot when Wells is involved. You have been warned.

That being said, thanks for providing an interesting point of view.

As for myself, I looked at calibers when comparing Assault Rifles and Machine Guns in SR5 and quickly decided it was too much work to actually go through and stat out calibers for the different weapons, especially as my table is not full of people who desire that level of realism.

WellsIDidIt

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« Reply #38 on: <04-04-14/0954:28> »
Agreed.  I've said my peace and I'm comfortable with that.  I don't accept WellsIDidIt's arguments are true, and we're just going in circles now.
Your argument is essentially boiling down to, "but the pictures don't show it that way." At which point I reference you to pg. 429 and the picture of the PJSS Model 55. A double-barreled break-action shotgun. I'm sure, as a gun nut, you can see how that artwork does not add up to the stats or description of the weapon (hint, it has a tube magazine).

You simply cannot propose that the artwork is accurate enough to determine stats of weapons when it has been inconsistent at best, flat out wrong at worst.

JimmyCrisis

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« Reply #39 on: <04-05-14/0253:03> »
Good day to you, sir.

The other Bandit

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« Reply #40 on: <04-05-14/0759:57> »
@Reaver:      I allready do  ;)   allthough the metagame is clunky and I am scared of the fickle gamebalance after clans arrive, I really like that game.
                        If you are playing too and happen to notice a suicidaly charging Hunchback shooting you with lasers and shortranged missles... that maybe me  ;D

@Medecineman:   Oh everytime I play Classic Battletech and use the 3025īs Battlemaster I wish I could throw those damn things. Allthough they make an interesting choice if you use tech 2 rules where mechs with
                                  hand  actuators can carry additional weapons

@Shinobi Killfist: Doing just 2 damage against mechs and only in 90 meter range is all fine with me. Additional damage against infantry too is fine by me... but it is still just at 90 meters max range! Against infantry!



Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #41 on: <04-05-14/1439:54> »
Yeah the ranges are a bit wonky.  Heck they are wonky overall in battletech.

Reaver

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« Reply #42 on: <04-05-14/1445:11> »
there was a reason for that way back in the original battle tech rules I believe...


Something about the ECM and jammers crammed into a typical battle mech making it all but impossible for some weapons to maintain a lock after XXX distance, or some such??

OR

The armoring is so thick that, the listed range is the optimal effective range VS the armor, not the actual range of the projectile??


I really can't remember :( While I was into the whole "Robotech" "Macross" thing of the late 80s early 90s, I never really got into Battletech too much other then reading a couple of the books once.
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JD

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« Reply #43 on: <04-06-14/1114:28> »
To try and get back on track with the question "Are SS weapons any good any more?"

Background:
We've been playing 4th so far, but our GM hath decreed that next time it's Conversion Time. My Sr4 character (your standard cowboy come to the big city, except he has a touch of class and a hankering for misbehaving) is rather fond of his gun, Patsy, to the extent that she's fully customised and plays 'Sweet Dreams' whenever someone in the vicinity is in need of rapid-delivery  lead surgery. However, Patsy is a Warhawk, so... how does that translate into 5th?

Everything I read here indicate to me that using SS weapons (bar assault cannons) is not much good in terms of survival (or even plain suicidal) compared to SA or even BF weapons - can some of you wiser chummers put my mind at rest, or should I start making up a reason for why my character would change?
""Just ignore the rules" seems to be the consistent take I get on this forum" 
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The other Bandit

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« Reply #44 on: <04-06-14/1416:38> »
You are actually better of with your fine little Patsy in 5th edition I think.

All weapons can just make ONE attack in any given combat phase.

Meaning with SS weapons you can spend one standard action to fire of one shot, but no second standard action to fire another shot.

With SA weapons you can do one of two things:  Use a standard action to fire of one shot, but no second standard action to fire another shot
                                                                                        Use a complex action to fire a three round semiautomatic burst, with normal recoil penalties and - 2 dice to dogde tests of your target

High power, high armour penetration SS guns are actually not the worst choice one can make in 5th edition.