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State of 6e today

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SITZKRIEG

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« Reply #135 on: <06-16-20/1353:36> »
You're not wrong... but moves far less bold have already drawn howling.

And that's not to demean those who don't like things like armor not adding to soak... I was just as big a complainer years ago when variable TNs went to hits, and UMT imposed changes on the metaphysics of the setting.

Absolutely it will from some.  Unfortunately, we've had multiple band-aid tweak editions with seemingly little to no success (at least from a relative outsider like me who pops in and out of the scene).   Shadowrun had multiple successfully crowdfunded electronic games that were actually good but it didn't seem to drive lasting interest/traffic to the tabletop game for a variety of reasons but it would be naive to exclude the tabletop game itself as a primary one.  If the game still wants to be a prescient look at a dystopian future then it needs a top down reboot every two decades.  Even if the game designers were 90% accurate in their initial predictions on the future, the errors add up and compound like interest over the decades. 

That said, and I'm repeating myself here, if they instead choose to be a retrofuture tech RPG with old school mechanics then the pretense of anything else should be abandoned and those aspects embraced.  Stop pretending to be half streamlined while simultaneously 2/3 crunchy with the weld between the two looking like it was done by a one handed blind man using a blow torch for the first time.  If they go this route, they should look towards the steampunk genre for ideas on how to accomplish something like that thematically/stylistically  (but obviously replace the 1880's with 1980's!).  Fourth edition for all its faults was to me the last real attempt to try to embrace one of those goals and I think it's time for another.  They need to commit to the bit but that requires them to decide on one first.  I'm not going to pretend that I'll buy in whole hog on anything they do but I will try to honestly evaluate it on the basis of what it is attempting just like I did with Anarchy a few years ago and am now currently doing with 6e.  Unfortunately, the former was a wash for me and it's not looking too great for 6e either.

edit:  I've had a few more hours to think about this and realized that this is not just a naive pipe dream but literally impossible in today's climate.  There is no way an RPG company would properly reboot a dystopia with anything close to the elements in the original Shadowrun.  Any whiff of slightly less than glowing praise for anything other than a narrow section of the world/society/humanity will instantly result in condemnation and cancellation.  There is no "good guy" society in shadowrun and I don't have any faith in the company having the fortitude necessary to handle the onslaught of criticism from a vocal minority on social media labelling them various heinous things because of choices made in a fictional setting.  Aztechnology as blood magic bad guys?  Xenophobic.  Can't replace Japan with China because the Chinese will get offended and that's where you print your books and make your widgets, right?  You don't want to end up like that flying ship battle game (was that Catalyst?) that lost everything because they didn't include Taiwan in a setting a century ago as part of China on a frakking map let alone potraying them as they are now let alone in a dystopian future.  NAN?  Is that how you spell cultural appropriation in the future?  And lets not get into the recent flaring up of the "orks are racist" argument in the RPG world just a few weeks ago...
« Last Edit: <06-16-20/1618:51> by SITZKRIEG »

Xenon

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« Reply #136 on: <06-16-20/1416:29> »
Deckers have 3 major weaknesses...
I actually feel that deckers are far more accessible than they ever been before (except perhaps 4th edition that didn't even feature cyberdecks at all). Both Skill-wise and Resource-wise (this also seem to be one of the design goals for this edition's matrix rules).  As a result it seem to be far easier for non-hacker characters to branch into a secondary hacking role or for primary hacker characters to branch out into a non-hacking-related secondary role.

And (for the first time ever?) hackers can now actually accomplish things by often just taking one single test. Door is locked? Let me just connect to it and spoof a command. Done. Resolved as one single test. Like a Boss (another design goal for this edition's matrix rules?)
« Last Edit: <06-16-20/1418:12> by Xenon »

Hobbes

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« Reply #137 on: <06-16-20/1649:07> »
5th Edition a Decker could get away with an Erika cyberdeck.  You needed to grab Smoke and Mirrors and all the cheap noise reduction you could, couple program carriers and the Overclocker quality helped.  But you could get double digit Sleaze which is 90% of what a Decker really needed.  Around 40k Nuyen.

6th Edition Matrix Attributes don't come up often.  You use Sleaze for Running Silent, then Firewall and Attack are if you're in Matrix combat.  If you're a Sleaze Decker though, you could play an entire campaign without using Attack.  And when Data Processing matters, you can usually have it configured to be your highest Attribute, or your second highest.  Pretty sure the Erika cyberdeck will work just fine.  Cyberjack/RCC/Commlink/or the totally not a Pi-Tac from Firing Squad for your other two Attributes.

I don't think it's a universal truth that 5th/6th edition Deckers "Must" spend 50%+ of their starting Nuyen on Matrix Attributes.  They've got enough resources for a decent secondary skill focus of some kind.   


Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #138 on: <06-16-20/1650:57> »
Depends on your Edge Generation.  If you have Analytical Mind, you can probably afford to skimp on ASDF stats.  You're getting your edge anyway.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #139 on: <06-16-20/1724:39> »
It is very difficult for Deckers to generate Edge from Matrix attributes when they're going against Hosts.  A rating 1 Host is likely Firewall 4, DP 3, so a Decker would need a total of 11 Attack and Sleaze which is getting expensive, but who cares about a Rating 1 Host?  Rating 4 host, total defense of 11, Decker would need a 15 Attack plus Sleaze, which is barely possible out of chargen and its pretty much every bit of Nuyen on the character.   

Erika and a Transys Avalon you can get a total of 8, which means you're not giving up Edge for a rating 4 on down host.  Or if the Host isn't maxed out Firewall/Data Processing.

Deckers don't generate Edge vs. Hosts.  Hosts generate Edge Vs Deckers.  Which is why it's really important to do things in just one roll when you can, and avoid hanging around in a Host.  Eventually the Spider will just spend 5 Edge and wreck your world if you do.

Technomancers should have a decent shot.  Charisma plus Intuition plus Resonance?  Psyche, Novacoke, and Maybe an Infusion of Matrix Attribute and/or a friendly buff spell from the Mage?  Seems doable. 

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #140 on: <06-17-20/0136:03> »
Analytical Mind needs to die in a dumpster-fire and nerfed to death. When compared to Photographic Memory, it is clear the RAI there doesn't match the RAW.
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Finstersang

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« Reply #141 on: <06-17-20/0756:16> »
Analytical Mind needs to die in a dumpster-fire and nerfed to death. When compared to Photographic Memory, it is clear the RAI there doesn't match the RAW.

Indeed. It´s insane how obviously broken this is...
  • 1/4 the cost of other Edge-generating qualities? Check.
  • Massively wider scope of potential triggers, from Hermetic Drain to Hacking, Rigging and basically just thinking hard enough1. Check.
  • Grants free-to-use Edge instead of "For this test only"-Edge2. Check.

Analytical Mind is so bonkers RAW that it´s even an OP quality for non-Hackers and non-mages. You basically get free Edge for thinking, FFS! What kind of maniac thought this was an appropriate quality?

1...which also includes memory tests and repair tests, for which there are already more expensive Edge-generating Qualities? ???

2And by god, do I hate the fact that there´s no keyword for that...
« Last Edit: <06-17-20/0813:13> by Finstersang »

penllawen

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« Reply #142 on: <06-17-20/0834:23> »
Analytical Mind is so bonkers RAW that it´s even an OP quality for non-Hackers and non-mages. You basically get free Edge for thinking, FFS! What kind of maniac thought this was an appropriate quality?
Agreed. I’d have a lot more confidence in the 6e errata process if we weren’t somehow on almost a year and three major errata publications and this rule still somehow surviving untouched. Baffling.

Hobbes

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« Reply #143 on: <06-17-20/1214:53> »
Analytical Mind is so bonkers RAW that it´s even an OP quality for non-Hackers and non-mages. You basically get free Edge for thinking, FFS! What kind of maniac thought this was an appropriate quality?
Agreed. I’d have a lot more confidence in the 6e errata process if we weren’t somehow on almost a year and three major errata publications and this rule still somehow surviving untouched. Baffling.

It's a tax for Hackers.  Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax.  Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking.  It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.

I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting.  But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.

As far as "Its so Cheap everyone should have it!"... Chameleon Armor, Lined Coats, and Hidden Arm slides are also so cheap everyone should take them.  There is no shortage of cheap Edge generation.  How much any one table wants to put up with it is a matter of taste. 

penllawen

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« Reply #144 on: <06-17-20/1245:58> »
It's a tax for Hackers.  Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax.  Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking.  It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.

I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting.  But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.
If hacker edge generation is so poor that they need an overpowered custom quality just to address it, then this fixes completely the wrong problem. If only because not taking Analytical Mind becomes a trap option, so decker players who don't read the qualities section closely enough are screwed. Fix the Matrix rules first so they naturally generate edge. Then revisit this quality.

Hobbes

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« Reply #145 on: <06-17-20/1341:39> »
That would indeed be the ideal situation.  Totally agree.

Leith

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« Reply #146 on: <06-18-20/1154:53> »
It's a tax for Hackers.  Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax.  Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking.  It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.

I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting.  But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.
If hacker edge generation is so poor that they need an overpowered custom quality just to address it, then this fixes completely the wrong problem. If only because not taking Analytical Mind becomes a trap option, so decker players who don't read the qualities section closely enough are screwed. Fix the Matrix rules first so they naturally generate edge. Then revisit this quality.

My experience has been that, statistically, deckers are usually on the back foot with hosts, just generally, and that that seems intentional. The max rating for a host is now 12 which could easily mean Firewall 15 and DP 14. A decker could rock up with 26 dice including a wild die and still have a tough time getting in the front door. I mean backdoor.

As far as edge generation itself, while host diving, the rating 4 example upthread seems to acknowledge the exploit program but not the Hog boost. If the numbers are close denying edge or gaining edge is doable. You are at that point spending edge to make edge but as long as your attack attribute is high enough that you make back the 2 you spent plus a bit more, you can spend more.

Meanwhile, hacking a PAN results in the opposite. A decker will alsmost always gain edge unless they are facing another decker/technomancer or someone stupid/confident enough to slave their PAN to a host.

I think this is all just evidence for Dezmont's point that the rules dont provide a specific role for deckers. Ultimately one will have to do it for oneself, but it would be nice if the mechanics were more supportive.

To that end, we need good edge actions and more ASDF upgrades in the form of programs and gear. The solution to getting hacked shouldn't be 'turn your wi-fi off' or 'hope your decker has your back.' And the solution to busting up hosts shouldn't be 'spend lots of edge from Analytical Mind.'

Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.

Also also, it would be nice if there were some indications of what rating a host ought to be. I remember there being something in Data Trails but the core book let me down in that edition too. Frankly,  that *excrement* is important.

Annoch

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« Reply #147 on: <06-18-20/1247:46> »
Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.


People want that because it was the last time that the structure of the Matrix was clear.  Ignoring the obvious issues with First through Third edition hacking, it was easy to picture exactly what was happening.  You have a deck, you plug it into an jackpoint, you run through the separate dungeon that is the host structure....easy!

The wireless Matrix does better represent the 'real world', but it adds many many layers of complexity when it comes to what is actually happening.  And then 6E came out and took out nearly all of the context, making something that was conceptually difficult in 4E and 5E impossible to parse.

I honestly do not believe that anyone could figure out the Matrix structure and rules using only the 6E rulebook, using nothing from prior edition knowledge or rulebooks.  The section is simply incomplete, full stop.

So, understandably people gravitate to the last time the rules made some modicum of sense....
« Last Edit: <06-18-20/1256:38> by Annoch »

Banshee

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« Reply #148 on: <06-18-20/1248:32> »
It's a tax for Hackers.  Not sure why folks get all worked up about increasing the Hacker tax.  Even if it was 30 Karma, Hackers would still have to take it because there is simply no other option for reliably generating Edge while Hacking.  It's like cyberdecks, they have to take one if they want to play.

I'm all for getting the wording changed to keep Herimetic mages from benefiting.  But big picture, this is a Hacker tax so Hackers have some kind of Edge generation.
If hacker edge generation is so poor that they need an overpowered custom quality just to address it, then this fixes completely the wrong problem. If only because not taking Analytical Mind becomes a trap option, so decker players who don't read the qualities section closely enough are screwed. Fix the Matrix rules first so they naturally generate edge. Then revisit this quality.

My experience has been that, statistically, deckers are usually on the back foot with hosts, just generally, and that that seems intentional. The max rating for a host is now 12 which could easily mean Firewall 15 and DP 14. A decker could rock up with 26 dice including a wild die and still have a tough time getting in the front door. I mean backdoor.

As far as edge generation itself, while host diving, the rating 4 example upthread seems to acknowledge the exploit program but not the Hog boost. If the numbers are close denying edge or gaining edge is doable. You are at that point spending edge to make edge but as long as your attack attribute is high enough that you make back the 2 you spent plus a bit more, you can spend more.

Meanwhile, hacking a PAN results in the opposite. A decker will alsmost always gain edge unless they are facing another decker/technomancer or someone stupid/confident enough to slave their PAN to a host.

I think this is all just evidence for Dezmont's point that the rules dont provide a specific role for deckers. Ultimately one will have to do it for oneself, but it would be nice if the mechanics were more supportive.

To that end, we need good edge actions and more ASDF upgrades in the form of programs and gear. The solution to getting hacked shouldn't be 'turn your wi-fi off' or 'hope your decker has your back.' And the solution to busting up hosts shouldn't be 'spend lots of edge from Analytical Mind.'

Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.

Also also, it would be nice if there were some indications of what rating a host ought to be. I remember there being something in Data Trails but the core book let me down in that edition too. Frankly,  that *excrement* is important.

Well just because Host ratings can go that high doesn't mean they should, and yes I know the book doesn't talk about that. That sort of thing was supposed to be covered in a GM section.

Your "average" secure host should only be around 5 or 6, then high security can get up to 9, with ultra high hitting that 12 benchmark.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #149 on: <06-18-20/1344:10> »
Note that foodpoisoning all of a Corp's Spiders is always a valid option.
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