Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Solracd on <09-15-21/2201:31>
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I received an email saying there is a new CRB PDF.
What are the updates to this files? I compared to Feb errata and I'm not easily seeing these incorporated.
???
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This new third printing incorporates all previous errata as well as an otherwise-unpublished third wave, which is basically just as big as the first two.
In addition to all this errata, it has an entire new chapter devoted to playing in the Seattle setting.
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My bad. It looks like my file refused to open the new file, so I was looking at the previous version.
It does indeed look like the Feb errata has been incorporated. However, does anyone know the full update on the file?
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Great, now I have to read the whole manual again!
Darn.
;)
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I expect that there'll be a "just the errata" doc published for the third wave, just as there was for the first and second. No idea when it'll be up... probably after Gen Con since it's not already up now. CGL people are gonna be busy until then....
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Million nuyen question...are the pre-gens legal now?
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Million nuyen question...are the pre-gens legal now?
each and every one of them got hit with the errata hammer :D
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Excellent news! That alone tells me a lot about the quality level to expect. Thank you and the crew for all the hard work.
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The 5 Minor action limit did *not* get changed, which is surprising and disappointing.
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pg 330 features a Pixie character for the first time and her unarmed damage code is 2S, so pixies officially do as much damage as trolls
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pg 111 Multiple Attacks
The text no longer gives the option of attacking one opponent multiple times. It's only for attacking multiple opponents.
This isn't the full change, but here's an example
2nd printing:
. . . there may be times you want to deliver multiple attacks at once. This can be against multiple targets, or you could attempt two attacks against the same target. Whatever the case, to make multiple attacks, divide . . .
3rd printing:
. . . there may be times you want to attack more than one opponent simultaneously. When making multiple attacks, divide . . .
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pg 108 Firing Mode
This section looks MUCH better thank you.
It's now explicitly stated that all weapons have a SS mode even when it's not listed.
It's stated that BF and FA do not require the multiple attacks action.
It's stated that Anticipation works with BF wide burst without using the multiple attack action.
HALLELUIAH
FULL AUTO DOESNT SUCK ANYMORE
Full auto is now an AREA attack that does NOT split your dice pool. The area starts at 1m radius (2m circle) and can be expanded by another 1m radius by reducing the AR by 2. This can be done multiple times as long as the final AR is above zero.
This makes full auto much more useful, but I wonder if allowing the character to use the full pool was smart, that seems potentially very powerful.
Related change: pg 47 Anticipation
Double your dice pool and split it as evenly as possible for each different target.
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Yeah, some things are strategic design decisions and are beyond the scope of errata... like the cap on minor actions, strength not adding to DV, armor not adding to soak, the entire edge mechanic... if you were hoping for any of that to change, then I'll spare you the agony and confirm none of that was touched by errata.
However, I still think we did a lot of good. Some things to look forward to:
Numerous chargen clarifications, as well as allowing initiation/submersion in chargen
Finally saying strength adds to AR in a rule :P
all the archetypes being given some corrections
clarifying the augmented bonus on skills
the afore-mentioned changes to multiple attacks, anticipation, and firing modes. those rules didn't play well together AT ALL, and were eligible for errata on that basis
needed clarification on breaking out of grapple
cleaned up blast rules a bit
established a limit on how many spell adjustments you can do
clarified how touch range combat spells work
a sneaky tweak to make vehicle armor more attractive (honestly, why wouldn't you just cast armor, before?)
a subtle nerf across the board to spirit ItNW
added restriction on bonding foci (no more Force 30 focus, sorry!)
subtle but profound change to PANs (no more limit on total number of devices- one hacker can protect whole team's PAN now)
some technomancer and rigging clarifications
slight tweaks and corrections to a handful of critter powers
a few tweaks to some gear and cyberware
correcting a whole bunch of sidebars/examples
and
numerous typos and confusing wording fixes
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I found the Vehicle Armor change and was about to post it when you replied. That does make Vehicle Armor not completely inferior to Armor. However, rolling against Obj Resistance will still usually result in a failed spell since the book lists vehicle obj resistance in the 15+ category.
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I found the Vehicle Armor change and was about to post it when you replied. That does make Vehicle Armor not completely inferior to Armor. However, rolling against Obj Resistance will still usually result in a failed spell since the book lists vehicle obj resistance in the 15+ category.
yeah, you're likely to only get 1 or 2 points, but hey, that's still nice!
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I couldn't find the augmented bonus for skills clarification... wasn't in Game Concepts (39) where that is first defined.
Enjoying the addition of vulnerability/allergy to spirits. Poor Kin spirits though, that's a rough one.
Disappointed that Analytical Mind didn't get a nerf, or at least a cost adjustment. Sure, design decision I guess.
Disappointed that initiation and submersion are allowed at chargen. I know people like doing this but it's just Magicrun. Initiation was always supposed to be an advancement thing.
More disappointed that you can learn new spells and new complex forms at chargen now. That makes the Magic column just about completely worthless, and very very little reason to do anything higher than D.
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More disappointed that you can learn new spells and new complex forms at chargen now. That makes the Magic column just about completely worthless, and very very little reason to do anything higher than D.
That you can't do. You can spend karma on anything you like, but in chargen there's a restriction against spells/complex forms. Precisely for that reason. (see the chart on pg. 68)
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The 5 Minor action limit did *not* get changed, which is surprising and disappointing.
:-(
... pixies officially do as much damage as trolls
Trolls have base damage of 2P, not 2S.
And they typically also have higher DR, melee AR, soak pool, physical condition monitor boxes,... They are typically slightly better fit for an unarmed character than a pixie.
But yes, pixies built for melee will probably be better in melee then a Troll not built for it. But that is kinda the point. You are more free to pick the metatype, armor, weapon of choice, magical tradition etc etc that fit the Style and Background for you and your character. Without getting as mechanically punished for it as you perhaps were in previous edition.
pg 111 Multiple Attacks
The text no longer gives the option of attacking one opponent multiple times. It's only for attacking multiple opponents.
This should be true when wielding one weapon. But I still think wielding two weapons should give you the option to attack the same target twice, once with each weapon, by splitting your pool. As I see it, this would be one of the few advantages of picking up the ambidextrous quality and for example wielding two axes or two pistols. Oh well.
It's now explicitly stated that all weapons have a SS mode even when it's not listed.
Good.
(realistically speaking it should also be possible to just tap the trigger once to fire one single bullet even if your weapon is still in Semi-Automatic or even Full-Automatic mode - but not Burst Fire mode.... but I can see how that would complicate things, better to just have them switch to Single Shot mode if they want to fire one single bullet).
It's stated that BF and FA do not require the multiple attacks action.
It was not really stated that they did before either, but good that it is now clarified
(I think it was a Huge mistake to remove all them clarifying, but perhaps redundant, rules and examples - for no other reason than to save word count).
It's stated that Anticipation works with BF wide burst without using the multiple attack action.
Interesting
(but it does make sense once you combine it with the change to anticipation).
Full auto is now an AREA attack that does NOT split your dice pool.
Similar to suppressive fire we used to have in previous edition. A frontal cone AoE attack that hit friend and foe. This is a really good change.
Having said that, I feel that Full Auto should also be possible to use against a single target (perhaps similar to a narrow burst attack, but spending more bullets).
Related change: pg 47 Anticipation
Double your dice pool and split it as evenly as possible for each different target.
Good!
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More disappointed that you can learn new spells and new complex forms at chargen now. That makes the Magic column just about completely worthless, and very very little reason to do anything higher than D.
That you can't do. You can spend karma on anything you like, but in chargen there's a restriction against spells/complex forms. Precisely for that reason. (see the chart on pg. 68)
Good good. That note on the table helps. The reason I got that idea is from the Initiation/Submersion change. The text that allows it is basically a clarification that customization karma can be used on anything. Old text:
Each character receives 50 Karma to make a little move forward. The points are spent on skill or attribute advancement, as well as additional funds to get those last gear pieces you might have missed or an additional quality (though the limit of six qualities still applies). See Character Advancement (p. 68) for the price of buying these advances.
New Text:
Each character receives 50
Karma to spend on character advancement, such as skills, attributes, qualities, and additional funds to get some additional pieces of gear. See Character Advancement (p. 68) for the price of buying these advances.
The new text is more generic, phrasing skills/attr/qual as examples rather than the list of things you can spend it on, deferring the full list to the Character Advancement section. Initiation is in there, as are new spells and forms. Without that note in the table, this would be more confusing.
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However, I still think we did a lot of good. Some things to look forward to:
Thank you for the summary, and thank you SO MUCH to you and all of the errata team for this. It sounds like a very material improvement to quality of play :)
Also I'm really happy that they are releasing the Seattle edition for free to previous purchasers.
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Also I'm really happy that they are releasing the Seattle edition for free to previous purchasers.
I have to wonder if that was intentional. I kinda think they just didn't make a new product.
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I mean they sent out the mail that it was deliberate? "Customers who previously purchased Shadowrun, Sixth World will be upgraded to the City Edition: Seattle PDF at no charge."
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yeah, you're likely to only get 1 or 2 points, but hey, that's still nice!
I can't find anything that states that vehicle armor works differently than regular armor, so it would seem you only get the Hardened Armor effect by way of this spell?
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yeah, you're likely to only get 1 or 2 points, but hey, that's still nice!
I can't find anything that states that vehicle armor works differently than regular armor, so it would seem you only get the Hardened Armor effect by way of this spell?
Yeah just the spell got an erratum.
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yeah, you're likely to only get 1 or 2 points, but hey, that's still nice!
I can't find anything that states that vehicle armor works differently than regular armor, so it would seem you only get the Hardened Armor effect by way of this spell?
Check out Double Clutch that is also in release this week at Gencon ... not sure if the PDF is available for sale yet. We out somenew vehicle armor rules in it ... as well as lots if other fun toys.
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Will the movement rules be addressed at all?
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Will the movement rules be addressed at all?
What aspect of movement?
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If you mean the movement critter power: yes, that got errata'd.
If you mean the movement of vehicles: yes and no. There rules from the crb remain, but there's also a new chase mechanic where speeds and distances are relative rather than absolute.
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Well, any/all of it really.
My gripes about it are basically:
(1) Handling breaks the rules around how to use Thresholds, and implies by extension that controlling certain vehicles is a feat of legendary effort in some cases. There's no guidance on how to apply the rules, and the GM and player both end up winging it. A Threshold modifier per vehicle would make much more sense and be consistent.
(2) Acceleration rules are excess math at the table, and makes for some silly situations. If they both start moving at the same time, Dodge Scoots can't even catch up to a walking character for about 6 rounds, for example. I don't even want to think about trying to pilot a drone in tactical character combat while contending with Acceleration rules. Plotting drone movement with that mechanic is pretty cumbersome. Drones moving at character scale need to have character scale speeds. The rating being divided by 2 to get to distance travelled is also a problem. The movement should be the movement, not a calculation. Considering the hand waving in other sections, there's no need to be this detailed here.
(3) I'd rather see Speed Intervals universalized as to when they kick in. It's more excess math at the table. They can vary per vehicle if needed, but I only care about Half Max, 3/4 Max, and Max. I'm not tracking m/CR in a chase scenario. I can't imagine trying to use that mechanic (I've always had to work around it in every edition that has it).
(4) Basically, you can't really use the existing vehicle movement rules to have a chase of any sort. They don't even seem aimed at that outcome.
If there's any changes to any of those aspects to make the rules usable, I'd be glad to know they may be coming. Right now, I'd have to re-write that whole section to have a rigger character's turn feel fun and interesting. Sorry to say, I really can't use them as is.
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There rules from the crb remain, but there's also a new chase mechanic where speeds and distances are relative rather than absolute.
That's good to know. Anything for using drones at character scales more easily?
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There rules from the crb remain, but there's also a new chase mechanic where speeds and distances are relative rather than absolute.
That's good to know. Anything for using drones at character scales more easily?
the only new mechanics are specifying what drones and vehicles use to defend against attacks with. Which was implied in some cases, but it was murky... and completely unsaid when it came to vehicles and drones NOT under autopilot.
when it comes to tracking how many meters a drone has covered so far in a given turn, or how much speed a vehicle can gain/bleed this round... you can either play it as written (which I agree is a bit onerous) or just be a little handwaivey. Just like there's no rules for turning radii... strictly by RAW there's no reason you can't do a 180 degree turn at 200 mph. GM can decree that calls for a crash test of course, but it's already handwaivey on that aspect anyway. SR6 isn't a vehicle combat simulator at heart (nor does Double Clutch turn it into one)
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So again, we have a set of rules that doesn't really work at the table and needs to be handwaved or houseruled to work smoothly. Not sure why I would ever go in for Double Clutch if it's just adding more of the same. It's design choices like these that keep me out of 6e.
To be clear, I'm not looking for a vehicle combat simulator (rpgs don't do that well anyway usually), rather the opposite. Just something that's functional. As written, from standing starts, drones first lag behind characters, have to overspeed to catch up, then overshoot the party because they can't slow down in time (even ones with legs).
Even a conversion formula for moving them at character scale without fussing with Accel and Speed intervals would be helpful. Sounds like we're too late for that idea though.
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If you're not even using a map, the exact distances are all very fuzzy anyway. Inherently hand-wavey. I suspect that's not what you're talking about tho.
If you're playing SR6 with a gridded battlemap where you measure exact distances, then drones are going to have to be sticking more or less to pedestrian-like speeds in order to not fly off said battlemap (10 meters per move action). A samurai can move up to 10 meters per round, round after round, irrespective of what their "speed" was last round. The only variation is whether or not they throw in some sprinting, which again doesn't remember past rounds' movement rates.
If you have a fire support drone along, it's probably by necessity going to be sticking to similar speeds. Whereas the samurai can't just add speed round by round (they either move up to 10/15 or they don't) the drones are able to vary how many meters they get on a move action. Accel isn't a hard limit on how much speed can be gained or bled in a round, it's the safe limit. Even then, drones like the Samurai have an Accel of 10: they can go from a dead stop to Street Sam's move speed just right there as is... and unlike the Street Sam they can keep accumulating more and more... there's no "falling behind". And again you can gain or lose however much you care to try: the GM throws a handling test at you with an arbitrary threshold (this topic again :) ) based on what the exact circumstances are.
TL;DR: I'm not defending the vehicle rules as being ideal... but I think they're certainly playable at the pedestrian scale. And, once you have the chase rules, you can just ditch all that gaussian mathematics when it's vehicle vs vehicle combat scale.
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When you accelerate, you only travel half the distance of the Accel value. So, as written, they don't keep up with the samurai. While I appreciate the "safe" qualifier, it seems like there's no guidance to the GM or a player for what happens/should happen if you exceed that limit.
That said, if "safe" is in play, I guess I would just default to "you can move up to the maximum speed of the drone" at character scales, and not worry about the rest.
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When you accelerate, you only travel half the distance of the Accel value. So, as written, they don't keep up with the samurai. While I appreciate the "safe" qualifier, it seems like there's no guidance to the GM or a player for what happens/should happen if you exceed that limit.
That said, if "safe" is in play, I guess I would just default to "you can move up to the maximum speed of the drone" at character scales, and not worry about the rest.
You mentioned you wished it would work better (at all?) at pedestrian scales. That's what I presumed we're talking about. If your speed is 0 mpt, and increase that velocity by 10 mpt, then your speed is 10mpt. Now, "realistically", the drone didn't go from 0 to 10 instantaneously, which is what'd be necessary for the drone to actually cover 10 meters when beginning the turn at a dead stop. But, since the move action doesn't worry about that for pedestrians, why go to the headache of simulating it for a drone's move action when it's moving amongst pedestrians? So much easier to play it as "speed X = X meters of movement allowance on this move action".
That stuff you're talking about is an approximation of gaussian mathematics governing total distance covered, which yes is rather complicated for a roleplaying game. And, if you opt to use the chase rules from Double Clutch, no longer used for vehicle scale scenes/chases.
And as for "well how much more than 'safe' can you accel/decell, then?". If you haven't accepted that SR6 not only embraces but relies on GM discretion, I don't know what to say :)
Edit: I also grant that this rationale isn't exactly spelled out in the CRB, nor did we add it via errata... but it IS a topic that we hope to officially publish as a FAQ for the CRB. Sometime down the pike :)
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I mean they sent out the mail that it was deliberate? "Customers who previously purchased Shadowrun, Sixth World will be upgraded to the City Edition: Seattle PDF at no charge."
My email was much less verbose. Here is the entire message:
Hello,
Shadowrun: Sixth World Core Rulebook - PDF has been updated.
visit:
(Download hyperlink)
to access your updated content
Thank You,
Catalyst Game Labs Store
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If you haven't accepted that SR6 not only embraces but relies on GM discretion, I don't know what to say.
Heh.
So, "GM Discretion" is another way to say I just won more work. Also, new GMs need some kind of guidance. Having no guidelines at all for some things is not a point of appeal. I always have discretion if I don't like the guidance or need to make an exception.
Nor is the CRB consistent with this philosophy, considering the specificity of some rules like acceleration, gas concentrations and barrier breaching. Those are examples of areas I'd rather see more handwavium as a baseline. There's a sweet spot between no guidance at all and a baseline I can play around with easily. Some parts of SR6e have that, others not at all. Consistency is what I'm feeling the absence of. But as you say, that's well into rewrite territory.
But no need to address that. The new rules themselves all look good. The changes hit that sweet spot for me. I think Combat overall is as good as its going to get, and the other changes all seem positive. The archetypes are mostly legit now. The rules I dislike are fringe cases that don't come up often, and now I have workarounds for the vehicle rule issues. I don't know if I'd ever run it, but I'd play it if invited to a game, and overall it's definitely at it's best point yet.
Thanks again for the discussion.
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I mean they sent out the mail that it was deliberate? "Customers who previously purchased Shadowrun, Sixth World will be upgraded to the City Edition: Seattle PDF at no charge."
My email was much less verbose. Here is the entire message:
Hello,
Shadowrun: Sixth World Core Rulebook - PDF has been updated.
visit:
(Download hyperlink)
to access your updated content
Thank You,
Catalyst Game Labs Store
Ah, so you got an update from drivethrurpg. I got the mail from CGL, and quoted a relevant part from it.
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I mean they sent out the mail that it was deliberate? "Customers who previously purchased Shadowrun, Sixth World will be upgraded to the City Edition: Seattle PDF at no charge."
My email was much less verbose. Here is the entire message:
Hello,
Shadowrun: Sixth World Core Rulebook - PDF has been updated.
visit:
(Download hyperlink)
to access your updated content
Thank You,
Catalyst Game Labs Store
Ah, so you got an update from drivethrurpg. I got the mail from CGL, and quoted a relevant part from it.
you must have that backwards? I got an update from Catalyst obviously because my email was signed by the catalyst game labs store. W/e
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I mean they sent out the mail that it was deliberate? "Customers who previously purchased Shadowrun, Sixth World will be upgraded to the City Edition: Seattle PDF at no charge."
My email was much less verbose. Here is the entire message:
Hello,
Shadowrun: Sixth World Core Rulebook - PDF has been updated.
visit:
(Download hyperlink)
to access your updated content
Thank You,
Catalyst Game Labs Store
Ah, so you got an update from drivethrurpg. I got the mail from CGL, and quoted a relevant part from it.
you must have that backwards? I got an update from Catalyst obviously because my email was signed by the catalyst game labs store. W/e
I got the newsletter.