Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: markelphoenix on <07-22-20/2304:50>
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Do spirits have to manifest to use powers?
Do spirits have to stay manifested to sustain a power, for example, Concealment?
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SR6 did not explain the distinction/barrier between Astral and Physical planes to my satisfaction.
The intent is that affecting something on one plane requires the caster/spirit to be on that same plane. Isn't explicitly said, though.
So yes the spirit is supposed to have to manifest before it can touch a target that has no astral presence, whether that touch is for good or for harm. Of course dual natured critters are simultaneously on both planes, so a spirit wouldn't have to manifest to put concealment on say, a pack of ghouls...
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Materialize. Manifest won't work.
A manifesting
astral projection has no physical presence,
meaning they cannot interact with the
physical world, and they are not captured on
any recording equipment. You also cannot
cast spells at targets solely on the physical
plane, but you can communicate with the
people in the vicinity as if you were there.
This section backs the whole 'got to be on the plane to impact it', though it should have also been mentioned elsewhere for clarity. It is, however, stated very clearly here. If even Manifesting doesn't suffice, there's no way just being on the astral works.
As for Concealment:
Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical
(P). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets,
whereas physical powers cannot be used in
astral space or to affect astral forms.
Seeing as how Concealment is a Physical Power, I'd argue that yes, a Spirit must Materialize to Conceal anyone. They can't do it from astral space, even not to buff a dual-natured entity.
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Materialize. Manifest won't work.
A manifesting
astral projection has no physical presence,
meaning they cannot interact with the
physical world, and they are not captured on
any recording equipment. You also cannot
cast spells at targets solely on the physical
plane, but you can communicate with the
people in the vicinity as if you were there.
This section backs the whole 'got to be on the plane to impact it', though it should have also been mentioned elsewhere for clarity. It is, however, stated very clearly here. If even Manifesting doesn't suffice, there's no way just being on the astral works.
As for Concealment:
Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical
(P). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets,
whereas physical powers cannot be used in
astral space or to affect astral forms.
Seeing as how Concealment is a Physical Power, I'd argue that yes, a Spirit must Materialize to Conceal anyone. They can't do it from astral space, even not to buff a dual-natured entity.
But what about sutaining it? That's what I am trying to understand RAW. Yes, it appears, Conceals, but does it have to stay manifested to sustain? Looking for the best RAW to that, if it exists.
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Do spirits have to manifest to use powers?
Do spirits have to stay manifested to sustain a power, for example, Concealment?
I think you are confusing manifesting with materialization.
Concealment (specifically) is a Physical power which mean it can only be used on a target that have a physical body and it can only be used if the spirit materialize (not manifest) into the physical plane.
But what about sutaining it? That's what I am trying to understand RAW. Yes, it appears, Conceals, but does it have to stay manifested to sustain?
You keep typing manifesting rather than materializing...
A spirit cannot use the Concealment power while manifesting. This is RAW.
Unlike materialization, manifesting does not make the spirit dual natured.
While manifesting the spirit does not have a physical form.
Without physical form it cannot use physical powers.
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I would argue very strongly that Maintaining a Power is using a Power. So a Spirit that has not Materialized on the Physical Plane could not Sustain a Physical Power, like Concealment or Movement.
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The question of casting spells on a physical target then sustaining them after projecting out of your body is maddengly unanswerable. It never got a firm answer in 5e, either.
A spirit using the concealment power then de-materializing (thanks MC, I have a penchant for getting those backwards) is basically the same issue in reverse.
My belief is that if you can't do the thing while projecting (or not being materialized), then you shouldn't be able to sustain the thing while projecting (or not being materialized). Maybe one day I'll get my wish and see it codified explicitly, but until then... that's my opinion on how it SHOULD be.
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I think it's a player perception issue. You wouldn't ask if a Spirit on the Astral plane could maintain Psychokinesis, Engulf, or some other "Active" seeming power. It's typically the "Passive" seeming powers that folks want to question.
If you're maintaining a power, you're clearly using the power, shouldn't matter what that power is. Can't use, therefore, can't maintain a Physical power if the Spirit is on the Astral Plane, whichever tense of Manifestation that is... ; )
To me it seems clear, but I'm probably in the minority.
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I guess there are good arguments both ways.
This is how I see it;
You need line of sight to cast a LOS spell on a subject.
You typically don't need to maintain LOS on the subject while sustaining the spell.
I see no reason why critter powers should not work in the same manner...
The critter need to be on the physical plane to use a physical power.
It don't(?) need to remain on the physical plane while sustaining the power.
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If someone is gaining the benefit of a Concealment or Guard or Movement Power from a Spirit, the Spirit is clearly using that power, ergo, Spirit must be Materialized on the Physical plane to use a P power.
If you need a mechanical analogy, it's more like Wireless bonuses. If you want your Wireless bonus, you have to turn on Wireless. If you want a Spirit to use a P Power, it's got to Materialize on the Physical plane. If the Spirit pops off to the Astral plane, the P powers stop working. M powers still work and there are enough of those to go around. Animal Control FTW. Pretty sure you could complete most Missions games successfully with just Animal Control....
(Edit: Animal Control, Sensor Tags set to 60 Second bursts, Pepper Punch / Flash Bang Grenades and tiny little rodent suicide bombers/bio drones...)
Totally IMO and the way I've always run things.
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If someone is gaining the benefit of a Concealment or Guard or Movement Power from a Spirit, the Spirit is clearly using that power, ergo, Spirit must be Materialized on the Physical plane to use a P power.
If you need a mechanical analogy, it's more like Wireless bonuses. If you want your Wireless bonus, you have to turn on Wireless. If you want a Spirit to use a P Power, it's got to Materialize on the Physical plane. If the Spirit pops off to the Astral plane, the P powers stop working. M powers still work and there are enough of those to go around. Animal Control FTW. Pretty sure you could complete most Missions games successfully with just Animal Control....
(Edit: Animal Control, Sensor Tags set to 60 Second bursts, Pepper Punch / Flash Bang Grenades and tiny little rodent suicide bombers/bio drones...)
Totally IMO and the way I've always run things.
So for Concealment, take into account the bod rating of the spirit because you'll want the spirit to conceal themselves as well.
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If the Spirit is physically close then, yes, you'll want it to conceal itself. Or it can wait in the Van and sustain a bunch of powers. Either way.
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(By that reading a magician can also no longer cast improved invisibility on the street samurai and then astrally project while still sustaining.....)
I am fine either way, just as long as you keep it consistent ;-)
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(By that reading a magician can also no longer cast improved invisibility on the street samurai and then astrally project while still sustaining.....)
I am fine either way, just as long as you keep it consistent ;-)
I'm not convinced you ever could do that in 5e. "Nothing says you can't" does not trump "Nothing says you can", after all.
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(By that reading a magician can also no longer cast improved invisibility on the street samurai and then astrally project while still sustaining.....)
I am fine either way, just as long as you keep it consistent ;-)
Magician's Meat Sack is still in the physical plane, so Astral Projection and Materialization are not the same.
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While projecting the magician count as a wholly astral entity (just like a a spirit that is not using materialization) and (just as a spirit that is not using materialization) can not cast any spells on the physical plane.
If a spirit can not sustain a physical power on the physical plane after dematerialization then a magician can not sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting.
If a magician can sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting then a spirit can sustain a physical power on the physical plane after projecting.
There are arguments both ways and I don't really care ether way, but I do think your reading need to be consistent.
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While projecting the magician count as a wholly astral entity (just like a a spirit that is not using materialization) and (just as a spirit that is not using materialization) can not cast any spells on the physical plane.
If a spirit can not sustain a physical power on the physical plane after dematerialization then a magician can not sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting.
If a magician can sustain a physical spell on the physical plane after projecting then a spirit can sustain a physical power on the physical plane after projecting.
There are arguments both ways and I don't really care ether way, but I do think your reading need to be consistent.
Indeed. It's undescribed as to whether you can keep sustaining a physical spell after projecting. It stands to reason that maybe you can sustain a mana spell, but if you cast it on yourself does it remain with your body or come with you when you project? Probably should come with your projecting form, but again it's undescribed. (I.E. your connection to your body is not SEVERED by projecting your aura elsewhere...)
and I'm strongly entrenched in the opinion that if the spirit must be materialized to begin using a some power, it must remain so to continue using that power.
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A grenade chucked into the back of the Van is a considerable inconvenience to an Astral projecting mage. Not so much a Spirit on the Astral plane.
There is a distinct mechanical difference between an Astral Mage and an Astral Spirit. An Astral projecting mage is mechanically similar to a VR Matrix character. The character's perception is shifted to a different plane and often a different "place". But the Meat sack is still physically somewhere and needs to be tended to in some way. Stuffed in a Troll's back pack or dumped in the back seat or whatever.
An Astral Mage still has Foci, and links to those Foci, and a Signature that can be tracked back to the Physical body. An Astral Spirit has none of that. Foci would be left behind on the physical plane and arguably stop working. A Spirit's signature isn't going to lead you back to the Spirits physical form if the Spirit is on the Astral Plane.
Dual Nature, Astral Projecting, and Astral Spirit are three mechanically different things with different rules.
An Astral projected mage sustaining a spell runs the risk of someone running down the signature to a helpless body.
If you need in game metaphysics, the body matters. The body, being on the physical plane, is able to sustain the spell. The Astral Spirit, without any physical presence, has no direct link to the physical plane and can't manipulate any physical energies on that plane.
RAW arguments: A spirit needs to be on the physical plane to use a P power. Someone gaining a benefit from that power is, by definition, using that power. If the Spirit is not on the physical plane, a P Power can't be sustained. Or if you'd rather, the P Power gives no benefit. If you want to say it's still sustained and will "re-activate" when / if the Spirit manifests on the Physical plane again, sure, whatever.
RAW: A mage can sustain a spell, and they take a penalty for doing so. There are no other restrictions on sustaining. If a mage was meant to stop sustaining a spell when they went Astral, either the Sustaining rules should state the Astral Projecting exception. Or, the Astral Projection rules should state "Sustained spells are ended or suspended."
RAW its sometimes okay to assume the lack of an exception is permission to do something. The rules don't clearly state that you can sustain a spell while driving, for example. I don't think anyone is going to argue that sustained spells quit when a mage is driving.
And quick strawman, would you argue that Quickened spells are stopped when a Mage Astral Projects?
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And quick strawman, would you argue that Quickened spells are stopped when a Mage Astral Projects?
I think it's pretty cut and dried that a quickened physical spell should stay on the aura-less body. There's considerable gray area as to whether a quickened mana spell should stay on the body or go with the aura, though.
And I also feel that there's not much parallel between sustained spells and quickened spells with regards to the question of projecting. There's ample room for quickened, mentally sustained, and sustained via foci to all have different answers.
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Quickening actually specifically states that the spell now sustains itself, so I believe that makes it quite clear that the mage's current condition/location compared to location at the time of casting is irrelevant. The spell works.
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I don't suppose they're still doing Errata for CRB where this could be stated directly?
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I don't suppose they're still doing Errata for CRB where this could be stated directly?
*cries in NDA*
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If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.
It doesn't say that a sustained spell have to be recast if a magician project into the astral plane. On the other hand, it also doesn't say that a spell that was originally cast on the physical plane can still be sustained if the magician project into the astral plane. This part is not clear and can be read in different ways (but since there is no mentioning about sustaining no longer working when you start to project I personally read it as if you may still sustain the spell on the physical plane even after projecting into the astral plane - projecting prevent the magician from casting physical spells, not sustaining them).
But no matter how the sustaining part is resolved it is clear that to recast a physical spell the magician would have to return to the physical plane in order to do so.
If a critter power have a LOS requirement then the critter need to have LOS at the time of using the power. The critter does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the critter power once it is already used.
It doesn't say that a sustained critter power have to be reused if a critter de-materialize back into the astral plane. On the other hand, it also doesn't say that a critter power that was originally used on the physical plane can still be sustained if the critter de-materialize back into the astral plane. This part is not clear and can be read in different ways (but since there is no mentioning about sustaining no longer working when the critter de-materialize I personally read it as if it may still sustain the critter power on the physical plane even after de-materializing back into the astral plane - de-materialize prevent the critter from using physical critter powers, not sustaining them).
But no matter how the sustaining part is resolved it is clear that to reuse a physical critter power the critter would have to return to the physical plane in order to do so.
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Spells and Powers can be sustained without LOS.
P.221
Type: Powers may be either mana (M) or physical (P). Mana powers do not affect nonliving targets, whereas physical powers cannot be used in astral space or to affect astral forms.
If the Spirit is in Astral space, it can't use P type powers. And I define "use" as any time the Target of the Power is effected by the Power.
Weather or not the Spirit has to re-target/re-activate after popping off to Astral space and back is unclear. And I can't think of a single time it's ever come up in 30+ years of Shadowrun ; ) I think it's safe to let the GM at the table handle that one.
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Spells and Powers can be sustained without LOS.
Agreed.
If the Spirit is in Astral space, it can't use P type powers.
Agreed.
The critter can not Use physical critter powers in Astral Space.
Same as a projecting magician can not cast physical spells in Astral Space.
And I define "use" as any time the Target of the Power is effected by the Power.
There is a difference between casting a spell and sustaining a spell.
There is also a difference between using a critter power and sustaining a critter power.
To cast a physical spell with LOS requirement you need to be on the physical plane and naturally see the target you are trying to affect.
To use a physical power with LOS requirement you need to be on the physical plane and naturally see the target you are trying to affect.
To sustain a spell you don't have to maintain LOS (and, depending on your reading, you can or cannot leave the physical plane while still sustaining it).
To sustain] a critter power you don't have to maintain LOS (and, depending on your reading, you can or cannot leave the physical plane while still sustaining it).
And I can't think of a single time it's ever come up in 30+ years of Shadowrun ; ) I think it's safe to let the GM at the table handle that one.
Same and Agreed.
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If the Spirit is in Astral space, it can't use P type powers.
Agreed.
The critter can not Use physical critter powers in Astral Space.
Same as a projecting magician can not cast physical spells in Astral Space.
Sustaining a power IS using a power.
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Sustaining a power IS using a power.
I disagree.
Using a power is when you activate/trigger/use/target the power.
Sustaining a power is after the power takes hold of its target.
By now you are no longer activating/triggering/using/targeting the power.
You are [just] sustaining it.
SR5 p. 394 Powers - Duration
Sustained powers may be maintained over time at no effort or cost. Because these powers are innate, the critter is not subject to any strain or modifiers for keeping the effect going the way sustained spells do—although normal sustaining rules apply if the critter casts and maintains a spell through Sorcery. Even taking damage will not distract the critter from its ability to sustain. As with sustained spells, line of sight does not have to be maintained after the power takes hold of its target. Critters may sustain a number of powers (or multiple uses of the same power) at one time equal to their Magic.
SR5 p. 395 Concealment
The effect lasts until the target is spotted or the critter stops sustaining the power.
Edit:
When it comes to activating/triggering/using/targeting a power on the physical plane it is clear that you need to be present on the physical plane and it is also clear that in order to activate/trigger/use/target a LOS power you need to have LOS to the target.
SR5 p. 394 Powers
In order for a critter to use a power against a target, they have to be in the same state, either astral or physical.
SR5 p. 394 Powers - Range
All powers have a range; this is listed as Line of Sight (LOS), Touch, or Self (the power affects only the critter itself). The Line of Sight rules for spellcasting (p. 281) also apply to critter powers. Unless otherwise noted, a power may only be used on one target at a time.
Sustaining a critter power seem to be different from the act of activating/triggering/using/targeting a critter power.
Same as sustaining a spell seem to be different from the act of casting a spell.
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In my view it's more of a prima facie situation.
"Are you USING a power while you're sustaining it?"
The answer cannot be "no". It must be "yes."
Therefore you're "using" a power while sustaining it, and you can't use physical powers on the astral. End of discussion, in my view.
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To Use a LOS power you need LOS
To Sustain it you don't need LOS
We are going around in circles.
Let us agree to disagree.
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A grenade chucked into the back of the Van is a considerable inconvenience to an Astral projecting mage. Not so much a Spirit on the Astral plane.
There is a distinct mechanical difference between an Astral Mage and an Astral Spirit. An Astral projecting mage is mechanically similar to a VR Matrix character. The character's perception is shifted to a different plane and often a different "place". But the Meat sack is still physically somewhere and needs to be tended to in some way. Stuffed in a Troll's back pack or dumped in the back seat or whatever.
An Astral Mage still has Foci, and links to those Foci, and a Signature that can be tracked back to the Physical body. An Astral Spirit has none of that. Foci would be left behind on the physical plane and arguably stop working. A Spirit's signature isn't going to lead you back to the Spirits physical form if the Spirit is on the Astral Plane.
Dual Nature, Astral Projecting, and Astral Spirit are three mechanically different things with different rules.
An Astral projected mage sustaining a spell runs the risk of someone running down the signature to a helpless body.
If you need in game metaphysics, the body matters. The body, being on the physical plane, is able to sustain the spell. The Astral Spirit, without any physical presence, has no direct link to the physical plane and can't manipulate any physical energies on that plane.
RAW arguments: A spirit needs to be on the physical plane to use a P power. Someone gaining a benefit from that power is, by definition, using that power. If the Spirit is not on the physical plane, a P Power can't be sustained. Or if you'd rather, the P Power gives no benefit. If you want to say it's still sustained and will "re-activate" when / if the Spirit manifests on the Physical plane again, sure, whatever.
RAW: A mage can sustain a spell, and they take a penalty for doing so. There are no other restrictions on sustaining. If a mage was meant to stop sustaining a spell when they went Astral, either the Sustaining rules should state the Astral Projecting exception. Or, the Astral Projection rules should state "Sustained spells are ended or suspended."
RAW its sometimes okay to assume the lack of an exception is permission to do something. The rules don't clearly state that you can sustain a spell while driving, for example. I don't think anyone is going to argue that sustained spells quit when a mage is driving.
And quick strawman, would you argue that Quickened spells are stopped when a Mage Astral Projects?
I'd also say the weapon focus is a explicit example of the connection the astral body has to the physical. If it was an exception it would have been stated that way, as opposed to more of a reminder since the stabby part has a psychical form.
2nd time i tried to type on my work laptop to answer something I was reading on my home pc in the lat 10 minutes woo.
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If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.
except for levitate for some insane reason.
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If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.
except for levitate for some insane reason.
Levitate became super lethal. With damage codes per 3 meters /2, able to move target Magic meters per minor action. Any sort of roof top, cliff, or any other venue of a long drop, levitate them over the side where they have no chance of grabbing onto anything and watch them take crazy dv in fall damage.
Also in that vain, if a runner tries to levitate up another runner to a specific location, a blind effect could become extremely lethal.
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If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.
except for levitate for some insane reason.
Levitate became super lethal. With damage codes per 3 meters /2, able to move target Magic meters per minor action. Any sort of roof top, cliff, or any other venue of a long drop, levitate them over the side where they have no chance of grabbing onto anything and watch them take crazy dv in fall damage.
Also in that vain, if a runner tries to levitate up another runner to a specific location, a blind effect could become extremely lethal.
So? I can do that watching. The reduced speed as of 5e was more than enough of a limit. It didn't need more. Especially a weird limit that doesn't fit the magic system. And while it takes a minor action to move them its magic in meters per turn. After nailing someone with a spell, sustaining it for multiple turns it doing a lot of damage isn't that big of a deal. Neither this nor the new weight limit of the spell was needed.
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I'd also say the weapon focus is a explicit example of the connection the astral body has to the physical. If it was an exception it would have been stated that way, as opposed to more of a reminder since the stabby part has a psychical form.
Not sure what you meant with that.
Your astral body just bring the astral part of your weapons focus with it into astral space...
you can't use a weapon focus while projecting to hurt targets that only exists on the physical plane.
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I'd also say the weapon focus is a explicit example of the connection the astral body has to the physical. If it was an exception it would have been stated that way, as opposed to more of a reminder since the stabby part has a psychical form.
Not sure what you meant with that.
Your astral body just bring the astral part of your weapons focus with it into astral space...
you can't use a weapon focus while projecting to hurt targets that only exists on the physical plane.
Sorry half my thought was put out, distracted by work.
All focuses, can go over to the astral. But they felt the need to make specific commentary on weapon focus as it actually specifies how it works and also brings its physical form and damage along though it can only be used on the astral. If spells did not continue to be sustained when you astrally projected under sustaining focuses you would need to put some kind of exception or explanation, either sustaining focuses unlike most focusses deactivate when you go to the astral as you can not sustain spells you cast on the physical when you astrally project, or unlike normal sustaining sustaining focuses allow you to sustain spells cast on the physical realm when you astrally project.
Weapon focuses show they are willing to create a specific rule on how it works in the astral, but it is silent on sustaining focuses.
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If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.
except for levitate for some insane reason.
Levitate became super lethal. With damage codes per 3 meters /2, able to move target Magic meters per minor action. Any sort of roof top, cliff, or any other venue of a long drop, levitate them over the side where they have no chance of grabbing onto anything and watch them take crazy dv in fall damage.
Also in that vain, if a runner tries to levitate up another runner to a specific location, a blind effect could become extremely lethal.
So? I can do that watching. The reduced speed as of 5e was more than enough of a limit. It didn't need more. Especially a weird limit that doesn't fit the magic system. And while it takes a minor action to move them its magic in meters per turn. After nailing someone with a spell, sustaining it for multiple turns it doing a lot of damage isn't that big of a deal. Neither this nor the new weight limit of the spell was needed.
Ahh, missed per turn. Still, Magic in meters is enough to send them off a cliff or rooftop. To take out a single baddy, especially if it's a big baddy, for 1 Major + 1 Minor, I'd argue that isn't bad.
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If a spell have a LOS requirement then the magician need to have LOS at the time of casting. The magician does not need to maintain LOS to sustain the spell once it is already cast.
except for levitate for some insane reason.
Levitate became super lethal. With damage codes per 3 meters /2, able to move target Magic meters per minor action. Any sort of roof top, cliff, or any other venue of a long drop, levitate them over the side where they have no chance of grabbing onto anything and watch them take crazy dv in fall damage.
Also in that vain, if a runner tries to levitate up another runner to a specific location, a blind effect could become extremely lethal.
So? I can do that watching. The reduced speed as of 5e was more than enough of a limit. It didn't need more. Especially a weird limit that doesn't fit the magic system. And while it takes a minor action to move them its magic in meters per turn. After nailing someone with a spell, sustaining it for multiple turns it doing a lot of damage isn't that big of a deal. Neither this nor the new weight limit of the spell was needed.
Ahh, missed per turn. Still, Magic in meters is enough to send them off a cliff or rooftop. To take out a single baddy, especially if it's a big baddy, for 1 Major + 1 Minor, I'd argue that isn't bad.
Yes if you happen to be fighting on a roof top it is more effective. Of course control actions would do the same and potentially to a group.
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...but it is silent on sustaining focuses.
You just activate/trigger/use the weapon focus (just like you activate/trigger/use a critter power)
After that they stay active without requiring a that you pay them attention (just like a critter power)
No matter if you leave the physical plane or not (...just like a critter power?)
And you can also choose when to deactivate them (just like a critter power).
No matter if you are are on the physical plane or not (...just like a critter power?)
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Yes if you happen to be fighting on a roof top it is more effective. Of course control actions would do the same and potentially to a group.
The conga line of security going off the deck of the ship you're hijacking... good times.
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...but it is silent on sustaining focuses.
You just activate/trigger/use the weapon focus (just like you activate/trigger/use a critter power)
After that they stay active without requiring a that you pay them attention (just like a critter power)
No matter if you leave the physical plane or not (...just like a critter power?)
And you can also choose when to deactivate them (just like a critter power).
No matter if you are are on the physical plane or not (...just like a critter power?)
Yes, but the question isn't can you keep sustaining a spell when going over to the astral due to some concentration issue, its does your going to the astral break your tie to the psychical plane enough that your spell is no longer working. Sustaining focuses go down when you go to sleep so they need some conscious level from you to keep active. So if the rule is you have a connection to your body, its enough to maintain concentration on spells kept active through a focus but not through focused concentration or just normal sustaining you'd think they would clarify it, as I said they were willing to clarify how a weapon focus works. So clarifying a how a focus works on the astral is something they are willing to do. And this isn't just a catalyst editing thing, its been this way since 1e where editing was a bit more robust.
They don't talk about not being able to sustain spells when going to the astral because you can.
The more interesting question to me is since physical spells don't work in the astral what happens when a physical spell interacts with your body, I'm thinking specifically the increase/decrease attribute spells. Would the spell still be on you but the effect drops in the astral as its a psychical spell, or would you gain the benefit of the spell in the astral as the psychical spell is effecting your physical body and you are indirectly gaining the boost in the astral?
Astral combat might actually be viable if you can beef up your key attributes to 9+
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Yes if you happen to be fighting on a roof top it is more effective. Of course control actions would do the same and potentially to a group.
The conga line of security going off the deck of the ship you're hijacking... good times.
That's pretty much how we used it, even dropped them a lifeboat. While death is death there is something dark about puppeting someone into suicide.
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They don't talk about not being able to sustain spells when going to the astral because you can.
They also don't talk about not being able to sustain powers when going to the astral (because you can?)
The more interesting question to me is since physical spells don't work in the astral what happens when a physical spell interacts with your body, I'm thinking specifically the increase/decrease attribute spells.
I read it as Physical spells affect physical forms 'only'.
If you cast a physical spell on your physical body and then project then your physical body would still be affected by the spell (but your 'mental' astral alter ego would not?).
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They don't talk about not being able to sustain spells when going to the astral because you can.
They also don't talk about not being able to sustain powers when going to the astral (because you can?)
True. I'm not sold on the idea that the rule is spirits can't. I can see why that could potentially be a bad idea mechanically as there wouldn't be a enemy to attack and stop it. I think the difference is the terminology that they can't be used in the astral plane, sustaining could be seen as a use. Where as with projection it says can't cast at and sustaining isn't casting.
My instinct is that both would be able to per raw. And I'll say since playing this since it launched in 1e, I have not seen it be a issue. Spirits had plenty of issues, but them concealing and leaving hasn't been one of them. Maybe great form spirits with extreme powers it might be a issue. But, I think there is enough there to make a distinction for powers, I don't think there is anything there to infer mages can't.
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I read it as Physical spells affect physical forms 'only'.
If you cast a physical spell on your physical body and then project then your physical body would still be affected by the spell (but your 'mental' astral alter ego would not?).
I can definitely see that reading, I can see the other side that your astral form is created from your mental stats which are now higher. I don't know how I'd rule. In the specific case of increase attributes I like it as a GM as I feel the astral combat skill is virtually worthless due to the stats you will have vs spirits or astral threats. But, its one of those things where maybe its fine now at base core book but after spell X comes out in magic book Y it is now a broken rule.
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I can see the other side that your astral form is created from your mental stats which are now higher.
Ah. Yes, I see what you mean. I think I changed my mind on this as well. Physical spells that affect your mind will probably benefit you in astral space (and maybe increase mental attributes should have been mana spells rather than physical spells to begin with - that way you could cast, and re-cast, them in astral space as well).
Physical augmentations that raise mental attributes (such as logic and intuition - not that magicians normally get them, but still) would probably also benefit you in astral space...
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This spun off into questioning if sustaining physical spells (namely Health buff spells) while Astrally Projecting is still possible. Or is this a function the Circle of Health ritual provides?