Shadowrun Play > Rules and such

[6E] Direct vs Indirect or Mana vs Physical

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KabalahRaith:
I think folks got a little carried away with the whole Direct and Indirect Combat Spells thing. IMHO, it should be deleted altogether and replaced with Mana and Physical Combat Spells.
How this would change the rules:
(1) Page 132, under Combat Spells, Defense Rating against Physical Spells should be normal, but against Mana Spells it should be your Astral DR (yeah that means even the most Chromed Troll Street Sammie needs an Astral DR.
(2) Page 132, Change the paragraph title of Direct Combat Spells to Mana Combat Spells. Also, state that Mana Combat Spells can only do Stun damage.
(3) Page 132, Change the paragraph title of Indirect Combat Spells to Physical Spells. Also, state that Physical Combat Spells can do either Physical or Stun damage.
(4) Page 137, Clarify in the Illusion Spells paragraph that Mana Illusion Spells are better described as Phantasms, they are only in the mind of the affected creature, while Physical Illusion Spells are best described as Illusions, with a Physical presence for anyone or anything that can view the area being affected by the Illusion.
The whole idea of Direct and Indirect was silly, IMHO. Live by the KISS "Keep It Simple, Stupid" principle.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat:
In previous editions, there were subtle but significant differences in how direct and indirect combat spells worked.  While they arguably still exist, these details weren't discussed in 6e and so as a result of streamlining the game, direct and indirect combat spells did become arguably indistinguishable from one another, besides having different dice pool mechanics.  And, in hypothetical absence of those subtle and significant differences in nature, I can see how making a distinction between direct and indirect combat spells can be reasonably seen as being a needless complication...

One of the projects the errata team is working on is getting an official FAQ published, and the magic rules will get significant attention to (re)provide those kinds of metaphysical details that previous editions provided that 6e omitted.  If that goes though as planned, it'd (hopefully) render your idea moot as it would (re)establish meaningful, tactical differences between direct and indirect combat spells. But, otoh, your idea is actually pretty sound on a first read-through, I have to say.  If one is willing to sacrifice certain sacred cows... and Shadowrun has been certainly willing to do exactly that before!

MercilessMing:
FAQ is still otw?  lets goooooooooo

KabalahRaith:
Stainless,

I briefly looked at some things while searching on this topic and saw some minor details, but these, IMHO could easily be integrated into Mana and Physical descriptions, which have a "real world" difference rather than creating additional abstract concepts that have no real value and only serve to make the game more complex with no added benefit.

Combat spells are already getting nerfed again with the addition of 'magic resistant' armor.

A mana spell never enters the Material Plane and should only be influenced by Astral phenomenon, to include Dual Aspect people, places, and things, unless you allow it to cause Physical damage, which I wouldn't. A Physical spell should enter the Material Plane at the caster and travel to the target in the Material Plane. It seems 6th Ed, is a bit lacking on the whole Astral thing, like attacking spells in the Astral Plane before the get to the target, which I thought was kind of silly treating spells like living entities. This would make it the case that AOE Mana spells would only affect things the caster can see to establish the "mana link" whereas no mana link is required with the target of a Physical spell because its energy is being channeled into the Material Plane. Hence, if someone is around the corner, out of LOS of a magician, but someone is standing right next to them in view, a LOS Physical Spell targeting the visible one would affected both.

Xenon:

--- Quote from: KabalahRaith on ---I think folks got a little carried away with the whole Direct and Indirect Combat Spells thing. IMHO, it should be deleted altogether and replaced with Mana and Physical Combat Spells.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.



--- Quote from: KabalahRaith on ---(1) Page 132, under Combat Spells, Defense Rating against Physical Spells should be normal, but against Mana Spells it should be your Astral DR (yeah that means even the most Chromed Troll Street Sammie needs an Astral DR.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.

(But depending on your reading, this is already already true for direct combat spells....)



--- Quote from: KabalahRaith on ---Also, state that Mana Combat Spells can only do Stun damage.
--- End quote ---
I disagree...

Mana spells only affect living entities (but can be cast on either the physical plane or on the astral plane)
Regular Invisibility is a good example of this. Or Knockout (which does Stun damage). Or Death Touch (which does Physical damage)

Physical spells can only affect things on the physical plane (but both living objects as well as inanimate objects)
Improved Invisibility is a good example of this. Or Punch (which does Stun damage). Or Shatter (which does Physical damage)



--- Quote from: KabalahRaith on ---(3) Page 132, Change the paragraph title of Indirect Combat Spells to Physical Spells. Also, state that Physical Combat Spells can do either Physical or Stun damage.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.

(but I think that Mana spells should still also do either Physical or Stun damage, just that it can only affect living entities...)




--- Quote from: KabalahRaith on ---(4) Page 137, Clarify in the Illusion Spells paragraph that Mana Illusion Spells are better described as Phantasms, they are only in the mind of the affected creature, while Physical Illusion Spells are best described as Illusions, with a Physical presence for anyone or anything that can view the area being affected by the Illusion.
--- End quote ---
Agreed.

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