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State of 6e today

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Reaver

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« Reply #375 on: <09-08-20/1152:19> »

I look at it as Shadowrun has been a dying IP for the last 15 years. (Since WizKids got the licence)
With the printing of 4th edition it has been nothing but a downward spiral for the brand with every new edition driving away more and more of the fans that made it a big name in the RPG industry. The took a unique and beloved combat system and made it the current generic system that was popular at the time. A trend that has continued to this day. 6th is just the next failure in this 15 year run.

Another issues that has plagued Shadowrun is when it was first made. Due to the timing and the tech of the time, Shadowrun now comes off as very old-school cyberpunk truing to shoehorn in modern-day tech.

It may be a unpopular opinion but at this time IMHO Shadowrun either needs a reset or to just be shelved. In its current stated there is just to much baggage for new players and the system will not appeal to old players. And CGL needs to stop trying to follow trends and chase after the simplistic rules crowd who, after working in a game store I can tell you have the attention span of a moth, and remember the fans that supported them all these years and try to make a game that they will like.

Just my 2 cents.

I would be interested in hearing of your store experience, just to see if it lines up with what I am getting told by my buddies at my local store....

Because i am hearing the exact same thing. DnD 5e may be a huge seller, but it appears to be driving a HUGE rift into its own audience....
(For the record, I don't play dnd 5e. so this is all anecdotal). Apparently what is happening at my store is they have had to basically divide the players into 3 groups...
Larpers, Old skool players. and "first timers"...

The old Skool players (those that have been around for multiple DnD editions) can't stand the whining and complaining of the "new Players" (those that came in during 5e), and "New Players" hate the old skool players because they are "set in their ways and won't change"

And the Larpers just seem to drive both groups nuts...


Not sure what is happening to western media in general.... my Shops Comic section has gone from a 50 foot long by 8 foot high wall, to just a 5 by 5 foot rack, while the manga section has gone from 4 by 4 foot shelf to a 20 foot along wall...

The RPG section has shrunk a fair bit.... But Board games have expanded, as well as his section of East Asian books, games, and puzzles. Now some of this makes sense as we have a huge East Asian community... but the board game increase really surprised me... (the comic and manga thing, not so much...)
« Last Edit: <09-08-20/1215:44> by Reaver »
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penllawen

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« Reply #376 on: <09-08-20/1153:02> »
Shadowrun and early WoD share a designer - Tom Dowd. Thatís why they have a similar dice pool mechanic (albeit with d10s in WoD.)

SR and WoD appear to have moved to dice pools with static target numbers around the same time - 2004 for the World of Darkness, 2005 for SR 4e. Thatís curious. I wonder what the backstory is there; were the designers talking, did they independently design the same answer, was SR inspired by WoD? Iím not sure.

Are there any remaining major RPGs that use dice pool with floating target numbers? It feels like it has fallen out of favour across the industry as being overly complex.

Reaver

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« Reply #377 on: <09-08-20/1202:14> »
You know, the other day I was doing an archive binge of a long-lived webcomic and ran into commentary describing 4e original as a "World of Darkness" ripoff. I was trying to figure out how much of that was just the regular "change is bad" that comes with a good proportion of any TTRPG audience whenever a new edition is released. I've heard decent things about 4e 20th Anniversary, but this was before that. (It's also worth noting that World of Darkness based a lot of its rules decisions on original Shadowrun's rules, so it might be chicken and egg there)


yea, Its a "Chicken or the egg" thing.

Tom Dowd originally helped create Shadowrun, then after he was done with FASA went to work for White Wolf and created the VTM game for them based off of his work with Shadowrun. He just changed the dice d10s, changed traits and pools to fit the WOD setting.

In the early days of SR and WOD there was a lot of player migration as the two systems were so close it made it easy for players to pick up if they knew the other.

Nowadays. Well, I see a lot of Pathfinder, and DnD in work camps. I have my group of core SR players... but I don't see a lot of WOD players....
Mind you, work camps are not a good place to get an idea of the health of community, as its RPGs still relatively new to work camps. (and construction workers are not known for tabletopping... unless its at a strip club, but then it takes on a new meaning)
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adzling

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« Reply #378 on: <09-08-20/1322:08> »
I guess the difference there is that in the comments, there's more than 1-2 people talking about how the new edition is the best so far.

Anecodotal.

My experience is 180 to this, I don't know a single person that is playing 6e and most of the srun players I know have either abandoned it entirely or are sticking with an earlier edition (4e or 5e).

The only people I know that are actually playing 6e are a couple people on this board, and that is it.
And of those people I can't think of single one that prefers it to 5e.

The only yardstick to measure the full extent of 6e's failure is sales numbers, and everything I have seen looks pretty piss poor so far.

0B

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« Reply #379 on: <09-08-20/1345:08> »
I don't really have a good view on that community, either. Most of my exposure to systems outside of D&D has come from the internet. I don't go to cons, I don't hang out at the FLGS, and I haven't done an IRL game since college.

In fact, even in middle school I got all of my D&D books by continuously renewing my loans at the library.

It's easy for me to look in front of my face and say "oh, the internet is where I find all of the gamers, therefore it is the community," when it really might be just one part of the community. There probably are plenty of other groups out there who never go to the FLGS or even the CGL website, they just continuously renew their loans at the library for the old 2e core book. They're part of the "playerbase," even though the way they feed into the economy is very indirect (Libraries may purchase books based on usage statistics, but it could be that 1-2 copies of a book are covering a dozen middle schoolers playing the same game for years).

And then of course there's folks who buy from used book stores (Me in high school when I finally got a job), or who will eventually look at online communities or purchase directly from the vendor. Tons of lurkers, too- I joke about there being 5 people on the official forums but my survey got 16 responses from here. Even assuming a generous 10% response rate for people who saw the link, that's a ton of lurkers!

It's really hard to judge the whole of a playerbase

I guess the difference there is that in the comments, there's more than 1-2 people talking about how the new edition is the best so far.

Anecodotal.

My experience is 180 to this, I don't know a single person that is playing 6e and most of the srun players I know have either abandoned it entirely or are sticking with an earlier edition (4e or 5e).

The only people I know that are actually playing 6e are a couple people on this board, and that is it.
And of those people I can't think of single one that prefers it to 5e.

The only yardstick to measure the full extent of 6e's failure is sales numbers, and everything I have seen looks pretty piss poor so far.

True. It was an exaggeration- the point was more that the comments about 4e on that webcomic were mixed, whereas comments about 6e tend to be almost universally negative in every forum except this one. I don't pretend to do statistical analysis on every social media forum I visit.

I should've included in my survey "which edition do you play." I'm technically giving it another day for responses, but this is the spread on how many people said they "like" SR 6e:

Source__________Yes__It's Complicated__No__Total Respondents
Overall8165478
Official Forums36716
Dumpshock101617
/r/Shadowrun4103044
ZeeMastermind0011

"Liking" an edition isn't the same as playing it. I might like variable TNs, but I'm going to have a hard time finding a group to play 2e. Still, it's fair to say that if someone "likes" an edition that they'd play it if circumstances aligned.

Someone decided to fill in my reddit username for the "where did you come from" section instead of selecting reddit, which messes up my excel stuff. We can probably assume they came from reddit.

I didn't fill out the survey, but- I dislike both 5e and 6e. I prefer 6e over 5e, if only because it isn't 5e. Given the choice, I would play a different edition entirely. (I like SitS, of course, but I am still hoping that there's a usable crunchy hack out there somewhere for SR...)

Banshee

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« Reply #380 on: <09-08-20/1421:02> »
Well purely based on Gencon 2019 ... 6E is attractive to new players, unfortunately we did not have a true con season this year so the statistics are not too usable... but if there is direct correlation between participants in the virtual cons this year that is proportionate to a real con then I would say that the trend is true for 2020 as well.

We sold-out in mere minutes (twice since we added events) and there was still a lot of demand... just not enough capacity.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #381 on: <09-08-20/1449:23> »
Clearly outcomes are going to vary, but I havenít gamed this much sense right after college. I could easily have a game ever night of the week and twice on Saturday and Sunday. So yeah gaming is for sure happening. While dead tree books maybe down, and honestly given Amazon Iím not at all sure thatís true, at very least online sale would only be strengthened currently. A product doesnít have to be quality to be successful. A system can have holes big enough to drive trucks through and still return big profits, or a system can be really great and still utterly fail. Thatís business, Iím sure everyone here has seen both of those things happen. In the end did the company make enough profit to make it worth keeping on going with IP is the only meaningful outcome.


I think this is true for a while but leaving aside any debate about rules the poor editorial values are going to continue to shed customers. For myself I spent a fair bit of money on 5e and I kept thinking they would fix the editing problems but it never really happened and the quality never really improved even in the new products. 

As MC says there are a ton of good systems out there edited and designed by people who actually know what they're doing. There's also plenty of setting material in existence for Shadowrun. I don't really need to give CGL any more money if they can't produce better quality material. Running Shadowrun in a decent ruleset really isn't hard. I truly feel for the freelancers that produce work for this game. I think they deserve better.

I look at it as Shadowrun has been a dying IP for the last 15 years. (Since WizKids got the licence)
With the printing of 4th edition it has been nothing but a downward spiral for the brand with every new edition driving away more and more of the fans that made it a big name in the RPG industry. The took a unique and beloved combat system and made it the current generic system that was popular at the time. A trend that has continued to this day. 6th is just the next failure in this 15 year run.

Another issues that has plagued Shadowrun is when it was first made. Due to the timing and the tech of the time, Shadowrun now comes off as very old-school cyberpunk truing to shoehorn in modern-day tech.

It may be a unpopular opinion but at this time IMHO Shadowrun either needs a reset or to just be shelved. In its current stated there is just to much baggage for new players and the system will not appeal to old players. And CGL needs to stop trying to follow trends and chase after the simplistic rules crowd who, after working in a game store I can tell you have the attention span of a moth, and remember the fans that supported them all these years and try to make a game that they will like.

Just my 2 cents.

Pre ill say 5? I don't think they needed a reboot.  They just needed for Tech to actually advance. They game was set in 2050 now its 2080 and cyber/bioware seems pretty much exactly the same. Like don't get me wrong a pistol today isn't that different from one 30 years ago but new tech like cyber/bioware I'd expect rapid advancement. No, they just keep it static, they refuse to change things as reprinting the same material many times with the same bad language is easier than inventing something new. Cyber should be so bad ass that there is no question it is the equal to magic. So at this point yeah, the game and its tech needs a reboot.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #382 on: <09-08-20/1457:36> »
Given how hostility towards SR6 also turns off new players that bought SR6, those polls cannot be representative unfortunately. Only CGL can say how well SR6 does compared to SR5, and any knowledge I have of said comparison falls strictly behind NDA, which I have no intent to break.

Why this topic keeps coming back month after month, despite there being nothing new to really say except for people going once again 'yeah but I really think SR6 sucks and Shadowrun is dying', as if they WANT the entire franchise to disappear, is beyond me.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Reaver

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« Reply #383 on: <09-08-20/1529:29> »
One thing to consider oB is timing.

When 4e came out, it was after almost a 3 year SR dry spell. Yea there was a couple of 'end of line books' (SOTA 2064),  but it eas clear they were written while still under FASA.

So there was some goodwill and egerness for anything SR.

Sadly, 4e (original) was filled with errors, and editing FUBARs. It was 4eA that got SR4e praise (if fleeting,) But even 4e had issues (matrix, gun modding, nanotech).

5e got some praise from the "grognards" (like me) for a return to some missing concepts (like deckers actually working)...
But also drew some massive hate as well... (Reddit spend about 6 months coming in to scream bloody murder)...

Now 6e comes out.... and well, I don't own it yet, so I have no comment on its quality.
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0B

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« Reply #384 on: <09-08-20/1539:43> »
Given how hostility towards SR6 also turns off new players that bought SR6, those polls cannot be representative unfortunately. Only CGL can say how well SR6 does compared to SR5, and any knowledge I have of said comparison falls strictly behind NDA, which I have no intent to break.

I think the issue Michael points out is an issue with a lot of polls: it's only a good representation of the opinions of who are polled.

Even with the smaller populations, I'm still getting 95% confidence ranges that are +/-10% or even +/-20% for the sample sizes themselves.

So, I can say for sure "X percent of people who participated in the poll said Y."

I can say with less certainty, that "X percent (+/- Y%) of people in Z population say W, with 95% confidence." By including the confidence level, at least, I am being honest with what the results represent.

It would be incredibly irresponsible to say that "X percent of people say Y," if I'm only polling a specific subset of a population (IE, users of three internet communities are not necessarily representative of the SR community as a whole). Not to mention, in a volunteer poll like this there may be bias towards people with strong opinions about something- people who don't care one way or another may not participate.

In an ideal poll, one would also sample some of the other communities listed (Facebook, ShadowRN, RPG Net). Or, they might send out a survey to all purchasers of a product. I didn't really feel like doing the first (I do have a day job), and the second one would require a mailing list of everyone who purchased the product- I don't think even CGL has that. They have a mailing list, but I get the feeling this might be biased in the other direction.

The poll itself does not measure how well the product does. I did include questions about whether someone had bought any CRB prior to 6e, and whether someone had bought a CRB for 6e, but neither of these are going to be useful for determining total sales of 6e. They're not even a good comparison for sales of 6e compared to previous editions, since I said ANY edition (Someone who bought a 1e CRB and never bought another book is in the same category as someone who bought every book for 5e).

You can compare the DTRPG sales of 6e to 5e, but that's going to be tricky even now since a lot of TTRPGs get revenue from the "long tail," basically, the sales that come in months to years after their initial release. You can compare what both books looked like at the 3-month, 6-month, and 1-year mark, but even then that's not going to be reliable since DTRPG was not as prevalent 5-10 years ago. I'm sure 3e is under-represented, if only because if you already have a hard copy of a book, you're less inclined to get a PDF, especially if you no longer play that edition.

The important thing is not to make any wild assumptions. You can state the results of the actual data you got in context. You can provide an estimate on how that relates to a wider population. You absolutely cannot twist it to represent something else, or to make an assertive point about the population as a whole. It's too easy to twist things if you take them out of context.

I disagree that only CGL knows how well a system is received or how well it sells. We can make solid estimates of online sales and how online communities received it.

I don't think anyone is under the impression that all of /r/shadowrun loves 6e, and it's just a couple of weirdos who don't like it. I don't think anyone is under the impression that DTRPG sales aren't an indicator of how well a product is doing. We may not be able to extrapolate total sales from it, but if we see that one book sold over a 1000 copies an DTRPG, and one book sold 50, the book that sold 1000+ copies is most likely selling better across all platforms than the book that sold 50 copies. Of course, if the book that sold 50 copies was the 3.5e PHB for DND, we can add in the same factors as we did for SR 3e.

Statements like your "Given how hostility towards SR6 also turns off new players that bought SR6," and adzling's anecdotes (Which he marked as anecdotal) aren't the best estimates.

Quote
Why this topic keeps coming back month after month, despite there being nothing new to really say except for people going once again 'yeah but I really think SR6 sucks and Shadowrun is dying', as if they WANT the entire franchise to disappear, is beyond me.

If the topic isn't interesting to you, don't participate? I don't think anyone should stop playing 5e just because I don't like it, and if I'm not going to go into threads about 5e and tell them that their conversation is pointless and they should all switch to another edition instead. I thought with it being the 1 year anniversary of 6e's release, it might be an alright time to look at how things have changed.

I doubt this conversation has any effect on the brand as a whole. And honestly, I can't take it seriously whenever anyone talks about an IP being destroyed. CGL isn't "destroying" SR, the community isn't "destroying" SR. Unless Hardy is literally breaking into your house and ripping pages out of your old core rulebooks, they're not going anywhere. I think it's fine to expect quality updates to a product you like, but if you don't like something you don't buy it. Maybe you stick to playing the old stuff, or maybe you move on to some other fandom.

One thing to consider oB is timing.

When 4e came out, it was after almost a 3 year SR dry spell. Yea there was a couple of 'end of line books' (SOTA 2064),  but it eas clear they were written while still under FASA.

So there was some goodwill and egerness for anything SR.

Sadly, 4e (original) was filled with errors, and editing FUBARs. It was 4eA that got SR4e praise (if fleeting,) But even 4e had issues (matrix, gun modding, nanotech).

5e got some praise from the "grognards" (like me) for a return to some missing concepts (like deckers actually working)...
But also drew some massive hate as well... (Reddit spend about 6 months coming in to scream bloody murder)...

Now 6e comes out.... and well, I don't own it yet, so I have no comment on its quality.

If you do get it, I recommend the PDF. The german edition is supposed to be better as well, if you speak german of course.

That is definitely something to consider- when 6e was released, there was still a lot of irritation from the community towards CGL. The fact that I even know what the heck the pool renovation thing was about is probably a testament to that: I wasn't around the community at the time, and I don't post all that much on dumpshock. But CGL was already disliked by a lot of /r/shadowrun, which meant that they had a higher bar. And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality. I also recall a few 5e freelancers being surprised at 6e's release, since they hadn't heard anything about it or been contacted to write it. So, there was more talent loss like after the embezzlement fiasco.

I would say this definitely had some effects on the lore. I'm still irritated that every S-K Johnson goes by Brackhaus, that kind of defeats the purpose of Brackhaus. (The 30 Nights run with 3 different Brackhauses running around was funny, tho).

adzling

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« Reply #385 on: <09-08-20/1604:47> »
And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality.

I'd like to see some evidence that this has any bearing on 6e's reception.

I have never heard anyone say anything to this effect and as one of the more anti-6e folks I can attest nothing could be further from the truth for me and the folks I know.

5e desperately needed rationalizing, streamlining and improvements in the decker and rigger areas.

That's change that could have greatly improved the game.

Instead we got nu-edge.

If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.

Heck if they had deleted 5e entirely and replaced it with a better system i'd still likely by buying everything that came out.

It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.

Lormyr

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« Reply #386 on: <09-08-20/1610:05> »
I don't think anyone is under the impression that all of /r/shadowrun loves 6e, and it's just a couple of weirdos who don't like it. I don't think anyone is under the impression that DTRPG sales aren't an indicator of how well a product is doing.

Lol oB, you give some of these fools WAY too much credit. Jab aside, your posts always seem logic driven rather than emotion driven, and I appreciate your perspectives.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Lormyr

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« Reply #387 on: <09-08-20/1612:06> »
It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.

Mostly ^.

Though I do think there is some change that will be difficult for some people to swallow, sacred cows and what not.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Mr Johnson

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« Reply #388 on: <09-08-20/1621:33> »

Instead we got nu-edge.

If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.

Or just implemented something close to as good as D&D 5E advantage. 

jim1701

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« Reply #389 on: <09-08-20/1722:59> »
And then 6e releases, with the same editing mistakes that 5e had, on top of all the "change bad" things that people will dislike regardless of the rule quality.

I'd like to see some evidence that this has any bearing on 6e's reception.

I have never heard anyone say anything to this effect and as one of the more anti-6e folks I can attest nothing could be further from the truth for me and the folks I know.

5e desperately needed rationalizing, streamlining and improvements in the decker and rigger areas.

That's change that could have greatly improved the game.

Instead we got nu-edge.

If 6e had not implemented nu-edge and instead focussed on fixing the broken stuff in 5e and streamlining where possible I would still be buying all the shadowrun products produced.

Heck if they had deleted 5e entirely and replaced it with a better system i'd still likely by buying everything that came out.

It's not that folks don't like change, it's that they don't like shit sandwiches.

Well I am one person to whom the poor editing in 5th edition was a lot more of a put off to me than questionable rule design.  I can deal with rules I don't like.  What I will not deal with is the need to proofread and revise a book I paid for that's full of grade school errors, missing references, references that no longer apply but got copied and pasted from the old version and so on.  I don't know if 6e is as bad as 5e but I have no motivation to find out.  I gave enough money to CGL already for shoddy product. 

The 4A edition is a good example.  There was some odd rules choices in that edition but it was damned well written and edited.  It was a snap to house rule stuff I didn't like.  If 5e had kept every design decision and just been put together as well as 4A then I'd have already bought 6e by now.