[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

Michael, I really hope you were using grunt rules for those fights with 36 combatants. I think I'd rather stab my eyes out then move for 30 individual NPCs in combat...

It´s also very very important to make sure that the whole group of grunts can only earn a max. of 2 Edge per round, so that the PC can already ignore one half of the AR-DR comparison in 90% of times 

That phenomenon is one of the reasons I feel the game plays better without a cap on edge gains.

[Michael Chandra]

Michael, I really hope you were using grunt rules for those fights with 36 combatants. I think I'd rather stab my eyes out then move for 30 individual NPCs in combat...

They were grunts so only had 1 Condition Monitor, yes, but this was SR5 so no grunt group rules. So yeah, there were spirits + sprites + players vs agents + drones + IC + enemy combatants, with 18 Initiative Scores and 36 total individuals. Having the enemies take time to get into the fight so they were coming in waves, was the only thing that saved me.

[Sir Ludwig]

I agree with Shadowjack when he/she says, “but telling a good story…..is far more important..”. 

I have run several games of 6th now and it’s been the hardest for the people that played previous editions.  However, we are getting used to the AR/DR and it is moving much better now. My serious players have already triced out guns using FS, KK, and SS.   

I don’t miss the 40 dice soak pools and everyone at my table still use dice (no apps).  I agree that rolling the dice is part of the fun. 

Is it perfect, nope as became obvious when all 5 players started chucking grenades at the big bad drone in the last game, but everyone is still having a good time. I think we (players and GM) learned a lesson about what happens in 5-6 people strat throwing grenades like candy at a Christmas parade. 

I look forward to seeing the new magic and rigger stuff when it comes out. 

Speaking of which, does anyone have an ETA on that?
Best,
SL

[Lormyr]

I find it a bit sick that in a time like this, where so many people and companies have gone through hardship, you still insist on comparing sale numbers.

Don't see how it's sick. Accurate analysis can only be done through having solid data. Opinion is opinion. Accurate data can lead to understanding facts.

Sales are the lifeblood of CGL remaining a going concern, are they not?

Not that I'd personally be terribly against seeing who Topps licenses the IP to next at this point.

It's just a plain old fashioned argument to pity. Don't ask me why- if we are supposed to be concerned about the hardship that CGL is going through, then sales numbers are the most "visible" sign of how it's doing.

Still, there's a reason why I stuck to analyzing the numbers themselves in that post, and not rushing to any judgements on the success of CGL as a company, whether sales decreases are good/bad, etc. I understand that it's easy for someone to take something like that personally, because regardless of whether or not you like CGL, people on this board are attached to SR and its success.

How dare anyone bring honest statistics or facts into the discussion! We all knows sales figures are due to the plague. Considering that someone might actually find the edition undesirable enough to skip purchases is obviously fake news guys!

I think we (players and GM) learned a lesson about what happens in 5-6 people strat throwing grenades like candy at a Christmas parade.

I find it wild when people say they had to learn about it through play. I took a casual glance at those rules and immediately knew it would be impressively unbalanced. Different play styles or mentality I suppose.

[Sir Ludwig]

Lormyr,

Maybe so, I didn't think about what they would do to the drone.  Players didn't think about what they would do to the surrounding area.

Best,
SL

[Michael Chandra]

Unfortunately, CGL keeps streetdates close to their chest, and anyone who knows anything is bound by NDA. I do expect to see Streetwyrd 'soonish', but that still can be a significant while.

[0B]

I find it a bit sick that in a time like this, where so many people and companies have gone through hardship, you still insist on comparing sale numbers.

Don't see how it's sick. Accurate analysis can only be done through having solid data. Opinion is opinion. Accurate data can lead to understanding facts.

Sales are the lifeblood of CGL remaining a going concern, are they not?

Not that I'd personally be terribly against seeing who Topps licenses the IP to next at this point.

It's just a plain old fashioned argument to pity. Don't ask me why- if we are supposed to be concerned about the hardship that CGL is going through, then sales numbers are the most "visible" sign of how it's doing.

Still, there's a reason why I stuck to analyzing the numbers themselves in that post, and not rushing to any judgements on the success of CGL as a company, whether sales decreases are good/bad, etc. I understand that it's easy for someone to take something like that personally, because regardless of whether or not you like CGL, people on this board are attached to SR and its success.

How dare anyone bring honest statistics or facts into the discussion! We all knows sales figures are due to the plague. Considering that someone might actually find the edition undesirable enough to skip purchases is obviously fake news guys!

Eh, let me be a bit more clear so I don't get misconstrued: There's nothing wrong with a pathos-based argument, and TTRPGs take up a big part of folks' lives so it'd be disingenuous to boil it all down to "statistics and facts." Michael was a bit glib, but there is a point there (COVID's effects on sales, etc). I know I started playing online games again likely due to boredom and lack of social contact, and me posting about poor sales from CGL is an un-fun thing to someone who enjoys the brand and wants it to do well. Personally, I still prefer SR in the Sprawl, but it is hard herding enough cats to get a game together each week since it's a niche system in a niche fandom.

I think the trouble comes when you mix quantitative statistics with qualitative reactions, like you state (IE, liking something does not mean it will sell well, and vice versa).

Unfortunately, CGL keeps streetdates close to their chest, and anyone who knows anything is bound by NDA. I do expect to see Streetwyrd 'soonish', but that still can be a significant while.

I actually like this, considering that most video games are putting out release dates years in advance. I get all excited for nothing. I'm more annoyed at "hype trains" than I am eager to buy because of them.

[Lormyr]

I know I started playing online games again likely due to boredom and lack of social contact, and me posting about poor sales from CGL is an un-fun thing to someone who enjoys the brand and wants it to do well.

That might be so, but it doesn't change the nature of the statistics you posted. I have seen a lot of griping in the form of blaming/shaming from a select few repeat offenders here any time someone dives into those statistics, and I am getting fed up with it.

Those are honest statistics, and should be able to be posted and discussed without grief. Yeah, covid is likely a sales factor, but it is also hardly the only one in play.

[0B]

Understandable. Though, to be fair, there are like 5 people on this forum

[Lormyr]

It's true. Some of those bros are better than others though. :p

[Leith]

As for handfuls of dice- it's hard to get more than 18-20 in a pool in 6e, and you have to be trying for it. At the same time, 10-14 is about the minimum anyone would have in a pool they use a lot. 6e has less dice than 5e due to this, and also because they don't have soak pools with 40+ dice.

In both cases, it's more dice than you would be rolling in 3e or earlier

Aggressor wins ties is a nice change too. Equal dice pools give you a 60% chance of success if you don't need net hits, like in combat. Makes things easier on the GM (not as many or as tough grunts needed to try and get through high defense pools) and players (not as many dice needed in the attack pools or non-combat characters).

[Sir Ludwig]

MC,

Thanks, I am all to familiar with NDA/Non-Compete and other legal documents in the business world.  I don't want to get anyone in trouble, was hoping I had missed a date somewhere.  However your explanation does explain why Slip Stream snuck up on me.

Regards,
SL

[adzling]

...Yeah, covid is likely a sales factor, but it is also hardly the only one in play.

You know Covid could go either way, it could reduce or increase sales.

With everyone stuck at home more money might be spent on a hobby you can do at home, like say TTRPGs via roll20 etc.

Of course it should be relatively easy to show this by looking at other publishers sales over the same period.

If their sales are generally dropping then Covid has likely had some negative impact on 6e.

If they have not, or have increased then you know it's certainly the srun playerbase rejecting Catalyst's latest shovelware.

[0B]

...Yeah, covid is likely a sales factor, but it is also hardly the only one in play.

You know Covid could go either way, it could reduce or increase sales.

With everyone stuck at home more money might be spent on a hobby you can do at home, like say TTRPGs via roll20 etc.

Of course it should be relatively easy to show this by looking at other publishers sales over the same period.

If their sales are generally dropping then Covid has likely had some negative impact on 6e.

If they have not, or have increased then you know it's certainly the srun playerbase rejecting Catalyst's latest shovelware.

That's oversimplifying things significantly. I think that qualitative analysis of negative feedback online, or even just looking at the reviews on DTRPG's page, are stronger supporters of your claim.

I don't feel like doing this for all the companies on DTRPG, but this is a brief overview of DTRPG sales on the last 20 books published by FFG and R. Talsorian.

Archive does not have as many pages for those brands as it does for CGL.

[Reaver]

I would disagree...

In the age of Social media, feedback and reviews are almost useless, as 'the spin machine" and "hype train" can spin whatever narrative they wish, but that doesn't make a product good, bad, or even viable...

Not to mention, that many "reviews" these days are not even from the customer/audience base (and more from 'outrage', political narrative, attention).

Sales are the only thing you can go by...
But to say a product is "failing" you need to account for all factors  and Covid is a factor....(could be up, could be down)....

Until you look at the big picture, you have no real idea...