[adzling]

Yeah Hardy is really, really poor.

You know how crap he is when looking at the products he's turned out for Srun.

I'm not holding my breath or anything but the only thing that would bring me back is someone other than Catalyst picking up the IP.

I've been burned too many times by Catalyst to expect anything other than dross, lack of care and apathy from them.

And if srun never gets picked up by another company because Topps doesn't care and Catalyst somehow keeps hold of it despite their torrent of incompetence then I can always keep playing 5e. At least it does mostly what I want and I know how to fix it.

[Singularity]

Last I heard (and this wad YEARS ago) CGL was the only bid on the Battletech and SR IPs. Take that for what's it worth :/

My understanding was that they (Catalyst) were only interested in the Battletech IP, but Topps insisted that Shadowrun be included as a package deal (i.e. Catalyst either developed both, or didn't get the license).

[Singularity]

Topps is owned by two companies: Madison Dearborn Partners (a company specializing in leveraged buyouts of other companies) and The Tornante Company (itself a subsidiary of Disney). After being burned by WizKids' failure, they have zero interest in games and kept the IP because it's easy money. Catalyst was created from former WizKids employees and fans of the game that bought the IP to make sure the games didn't just disappear. I don't know how the licensing works, but I'm pretty sure CGL can't drop Shadowrun and keep BattleTech, or vice versa. As long as one is selling, the other game will be producing.

That was my understanding; The IPs were a package deal, and both need to be developed under the current license.

Topps could sell of the IP to make capital, but they don't need to. Although if you hear rumblings that Topps is declaring bankruptcy, expect them to sell fast. And cheap.

Since Topps, through the chain of subsidiaries, is part of Disney, I don't expect any offers (except ridiculous ones) to have a chance to purchase it. Again, it's free money for the company that is returned every year.

For the last two, Topps could raise the license's fees (and may have done so since CGL first got them), but they aren't going to do so in a bluff to try and get Catalyst to pay way more than they can. If CGL's sales suddenly quadruple, I'm sure there will be a renegotiation for the license in the next quarter. And, as I said before, I believe the license is for BattleTech AND Shadowrun, so CGL won't drop the license.

Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books. To give you a clear idea, here's how it looks for ALL of CGL on DriveThruRPG:

Normally I would agree that Disney wouldn't sell, but they have had a horrible year with a loss (so far) of -$18 billion on their theme parks alone. During the height of the Corona lock-down, they took out at least one loan of $5 billion. Given that some of their divisions (Marvel comics, Star Wars) have been grossly under-preforming for awhile now, I could see them eyeing a sell-off of some of their lesser IPs. As it stands, they are going to have to answer some hard questions to their investors by the end of their current fiscal year.

[Reaver]

Topps is owned by two companies: Madison Dearborn Partners (a company specializing in leveraged buyouts of other companies) and The Tornante Company (itself a subsidiary of Disney). After being burned by WizKids' failure, they have zero interest in games and kept the IP because it's easy money. Catalyst was created from former WizKids employees and fans of the game that bought the IP to make sure the games didn't just disappear. I don't know how the licensing works, but I'm pretty sure CGL can't drop Shadowrun and keep BattleTech, or vice versa. As long as one is selling, the other game will be producing.

That was my understanding; The IPs were a package deal, and both need to be developed under the current license.

Topps could sell of the IP to make capital, but they don't need to. Although if you hear rumblings that Topps is declaring bankruptcy, expect them to sell fast. And cheap.

Since Topps, through the chain of subsidiaries, is part of Disney, I don't expect any offers (except ridiculous ones) to have a chance to purchase it. Again, it's free money for the company that is returned every year.

For the last two, Topps could raise the license's fees (and may have done so since CGL first got them), but they aren't going to do so in a bluff to try and get Catalyst to pay way more than they can. If CGL's sales suddenly quadruple, I'm sure there will be a renegotiation for the license in the next quarter. And, as I said before, I believe the license is for BattleTech AND Shadowrun, so CGL won't drop the license.

Of course, if sales really start tanking and people keep on complaining, CGL could maintain the license and just stop making Shadowrun books. To give you a clear idea, here's how it looks for ALL of CGL on DriveThruRPG:

Normally I would agree that Disney wouldn't sell, but they have had a horrible year with a loss (so far) of -$18 billion on their theme parks alone. During the height of the Corona lock-down, they took out at least one loan of $5 billion. Given that some of their divisions (Marvel comics, Star Wars) have been grossly under-preforming for awhile now, I could see them eyeing a sell-off of some of their lesser IPs. As it stands, they are going to have to answer some hard questions to their investors by the end of their current fiscal year.

I don't think there is anyone, current year, with any capital to spend...

There have been a couple "big ticket" platforms on the block since late LAST year, no one has shown interest....

[Shadowjack]

I haven't playing any Shadowrun in 2020, that makes me sad. I was excited for 6E and liked a lot of it but I still felt a lot more was needed. The game is too complex, it just doesn't feel good to play. The setting I rate highly, the rules I feel were an attempt to modernize with the restriction of maintaining as much of the old as possible. The priority table returning was a very bad idea, a mathematical trap which can screw you out of hundreds of karma before you fired a bullet, then you spend lots of sessions getting that karma back while your team soars ahead. The guns don't feel fun now, the accessories they come with are often confusingly written, it makes it hard to evaluate their worth and appeal. The qualities are a HUGE step in the right direction imo, definitely one of the highlights of 6E for me. They're all very viable imo, whereas in 5E I didn't like a ton of them. I could go on about the good and bad from my perspective but long story short: I'll be back in 7E or if new Anarchy stuff can reel me in. I feel a void in my life without playing Shadowrun, nothing else can match the setting for me, the vibe, the look, everything is great except the rules. I hope in 7E they take a big risk and redesign the rules mostly from scratch. Probably won't happen but that's what it would take to fix the game imo.

[Michael Chandra]

Eh, Priority isn't half as bad as people claim, unless you want new people stuck in chargen for days with karmagen. BP was a living nightmare. Life Modules needs a frickin' excel sheet to properly look at. If you're that worried of falling behind, maybe create chars together instead. And they did redesign a significant part of the rules already in SR6, not sure how much further they'd have to go for you, but at some point it sounds like you're better off writing your own ruleset.

[Lormyr]

I enjoy the concept of the priority system, but any chargen system where you can have two characters come out with 100's of points of karma disparity between them is a poorly implemented version. The chart needs rebalanced for sure.

[penllawen]

I hope in 7E they take a big risk and redesign the rules mostly from scratch. Probably won't happen but that's what it would take to fix the game imo.

Screw 7e, IMO; I'd much rather see a really well-thought-out [1] Anarchy 2e. Easier to build up from solid foundations than it is to chip away at twisted baroque architecture.

[1] Insert obligatory Catalyst lols here.

[penllawen]

Eh, Priority isn't half as bad as people claim, unless you want new people stuck in chargen for days with karmagen. BP was a living nightmare. Life Modules needs a frickin' excel sheet to properly look at.

"This chargen method might be bad but all the rest are terrible" is perhaps not the amazing defence of the system you think it is.

[FastJack]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with penllawen. Not that 6E is totally broken, but if they do go with a new edition, go all the way back to the drawing board.

Most of the stuff you see in the games that have been around for longer than 20 years are set that way because, when designing the game in 80's & 90's, the designers had to make the rules very different from D&D, else they would have TSR sending out C&D letters and threatening copyright infringement.

The reason there's 8 total attributes? D&D had six. Reason for the D6's? D&D had the d20 base. Reason why magic was written with Force and such? Couldn't do Vancian magic, since that was D&D's back yard.

But with 3rd edition and OGLs, Designers are now free to "borrow" ideas that work without having to jump through too many legal hoops. Granted, if it looks too much like D&D, you have to stuff and OGL page in your book. When 7E finally comes around, maybe it's time to start over instead of trying to tack on rules & such to keep the "feel" of a system that was pretty broken from the start.

[Michael Chandra]

I am a fan of SR6 dropping Force for Spells, and wonder if there's a balanced way to do so for Spirits. Maybe just split them into a few different levels. I also would prefer preparations to not do the whole Potency thing, since that's a second layer I dislike.

[penllawen]

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with penllawen.

Hey, I am the proverbial stopped clock, and I guess it’s my lucky time of day!

When 7E finally comes around, maybe it's time to start over instead of trying to tack on rules & such to keep the "feel" of a system that was pretty broken from the start.

Sounds good to me.

Since getting back into RPGs in 2018 (having been away from the hobby since the early 2000s), I’ve been blown away by the rise of PbtAs and similar rules-lite games they are fast, fluid, and really, really thoughtful about having innovative mechanics that support and reinforce the game’s narrative tropes. They feel like a modern breath of fresh air compared to Shadowrun, which - let’s be honest - hasn’t been substantially overhauled in fifteen years. I love it dearly but it’s an antiquated beast of a system.

My beef with 6e wasn’t the so-called radical changes. It was the lack of radical changes that grated on me. Also, don’t get me wrong - my dislike of 6e doesn’t mean I think any edition of SR was perfect. They are all blighted with so many annoying bits and dated mechanics. That’s a big part of why I’m so salty about 6e. I really wanted a modern Shadowrun system, and felt like the bar to be the best version of Shadowrun ever was really not that high. I was disappointed when it didn’t hit those goals for me. 

As for Anarchy... it’s about 50% really good ideas and the other 50% is completely missing. You can stitch it together if you lean hard on fan supplements like Surprise Threat! but that shouldn’t be necessary. Game deserves a 2e.

[Marcus]

Just given the situation at this time no one's going to dropping cash for table top IPs, and it doesn't sound SR is up for sale anyways.

Honestly Penllawen is not wrong in that it almost certainly does make more sense to go with Anarchy 2nd or revised then an attempt to fix the current edition. Simple is still the preference of the industry right now.

Maybe in days to come PF2 may eventually persuade the industry back into crunchy systems, but if I was betting man, my money would be on TCoE for top TTRPG seller of 2020. It's already number one on Amazon.

As far as 7e goes, starting fresh makes sense to me. Don't get me wrong, I liked 4th and 5th. But I think the IP has been drifting sense 3rd. We have seen some really strong game design come out in the last couple years, 6e should have been 5e 30th anniversary edition. 5e D&D is doing a great job of bringing people in, but I expect folks will branch out in the hobby with time. I think things will turn around, and I hope we will see things start going our way.

I'd love to see some changes to the time line, and look at doing a broader spectrum SR. A fantasy fey setting like the Elf kingdom book from 5e, A low magic SR as the Occult war around ww2, the Traditional Cyberpunk setting, and maybe some kind more advanced future setting similar to the Expanse. Just a thought.

[0B]

I hope in 7E they take a big risk and redesign the rules mostly from scratch. Probably won't happen but that's what it would take to fix the game imo.

Screw 7e, IMO; I'd much rather see a really well-thought-out [1] Anarchy 2e. Easier to build up from solid foundations than it is to chip away at twisted baroque architecture.

[1] Insert obligatory Catalyst lols here.

Anarchy 2e, you say...

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I agree with penllawen. Not that 6E is totally broken, but if they do go with a new edition, go all the way back to the drawing board.

Most of the stuff you see in the games that have been around for longer than 20 years are set that way because, when designing the game in 80's & 90's, the designers had to make the rules very different from D&D, else they would have TSR sending out C&D letters and threatening copyright infringement.

The reason there's 8 total attributes? D&D had six. Reason for the D6's? D&D had the d20 base. Reason why magic was written with Force and such? Couldn't do Vancian magic, since that was D&D's back yard.

But with 3rd edition and OGLs, Designers are now free to "borrow" ideas that work without having to jump through too many legal hoops. Granted, if it looks too much like D&D, you have to stuff and OGL page in your book. When 7E finally comes around, maybe it's time to start over instead of trying to tack on rules & such to keep the "feel" of a system that was pretty broken from the start.

They could try borrowing more of Earthsea's magic, what with Names and all that. I never played through Earthdawn, so I don't know how much "inspiration' the game got from Earthsea.

Still, that would be a major lore revision, which is NOT something that I think folks would be interested in.

If Shadowrun in the Sprawl had a little more crunch involved, I think it'd be the perfect system. Maybe a "OSR" take on SR would be interesting (Just the OSR philosophy of game design, not the OSR mechanics verbatim).

I'd love to see some changes to the time line, and look at doing a broader spectrum SR. A fantasy fey setting like the Elf kingdom book from 5e, A low magic SR as the Occult war around ww2, the Traditional Cyberpunk setting, and maybe some kind more advanced future setting similar to the Expanse. Just a thought.

Have you read Slip Streams? "Alchera" is built exactly for that sort of thing. I'm gonna try and do a Mercurial run using it, but you could do any of the above examples

Side note,- I kind of hate that they went with "alchera," since they literally could have made up a word instead. But it's not like folks are going to stop using "mana" or "voodoo" anytime soon.

[Singularity]

Maybe in days to come PF2 may eventually persuade the industry back into crunchy systems, but if I was betting man, my money would be on TCoE for top TTRPG seller of 2020. It's already number one on Amazon.

What is TCoE? I tried searching for it, but the search engine had a fit trying to figure out what it stood for.