[penllawen]

Well just because Host ratings can go that high doesn't mean they should, and yes I know the book doesn't talk about that. That sort of thing was supposed to be covered in a GM section.

Man, that sucks. For whatever it’s worth coming from this internet stranger — I’m sorry your work wasn’t presented in the best light, Banshee.

[Reaver]

I have to admit, I have thought Shadowrun could have used a GM section filled with examples of dice pools, and thresh holds. Yes, there are examples in the various rules, but that does really replace a good GM section.

Too bad it got chopped, as it might have answered more then a few questions people have had over the years...

[Leith]

Also I find it funny that people hate that everything is wireless but would be happy for the setting to regress back to the 1980s/90s. No judgement on which is your preference, it just amuses me how the human mind works sometimes.

People want that because it was the last time that the structure of the Matrix was clear.  Ignoring the obvious issues with First through Third edition hacking, it was easy to picture exactly what was happening.  You have a deck, you plug it into an jackpoint, you run through the separate dungeon that is the host structure....easy!

The wireless Matrix does better represent the 'real world', but it adds many many layers of complexity when it comes to what is actually happening.  And then 6E came out and took out nearly all of the context, making something that was conceptually difficult in 4E and 5E impossible to parse.

I honestly do not believe that anyone could figure out the Matrix structure and rules using only the 6E rulebook, using nothing from prior edition knowledge or rulebooks.  The section is simply incomplete, full stop.

So, understandably people gravitate to the last time the rules made some modicum of sense....

I jave read the 1e matrix rules. I am not a tech guy. I was 2 years old when that book was published. It made just as much sense to me as the 6e matrix chapter. Nostalgia is nostalgic. Which is not bad.

I do think that unless the plan is to ditch 6e and go back in time it is more productive to discuss what the game does and does not do. The fact that the rules are incomprehensible is a criticism that could be applied to the whole book, but is not, in and of itself, helpful. Which is not a criticism of people saying that, feedback is feedback. The question is what do you need your feedback to accomplish. Which I guess would be to get CGL to write something that made sense...

Honestly, I'd just like to see CGL edit their stuff better. I have only one serious critique of Firing Squad, and it is that. Pay an english major and fix that stuff before you send it to the printer. Somehow everyone else manages it.

[Michael Chandra]

I have to admit, I have thought Shadowrun could have used a GM section filled with examples of dice pools, and thresh holds. Yes, there are examples in the various rules, but that does really replace a good GM section.

Too bad it got chopped, as it might have answered more then a few questions people have had over the years...

More GM info is good but given how people got nasty about rewards and training times, despite them clearly stating they're guidelines, I'm not sure if more example thresholds than are in the book now would be a good idea.

[Lormyr]

More GM info is good but given how people got nasty about rewards and training times, despite them clearly stating they're guidelines, I'm not sure if more example thresholds than are in the book now would be a good idea.

Raised legitimate concerns about rewards and training times, especially as relates to organized play. Fixed for that for ya!

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I happen to know that the SRM FAQ people thought long and hard about what to do about training times for organized play.

There's agreement with your perspective Lormyr that training times measured by the month would not be a good thing for SRM play.  But any changes there are of course just for SRM, not formal errata to the CRB.

But for what it's worth, the CRB's rule is that the GM simply says how long training takes.  the "suggestions" may look like official rules due to being incorporated into the Advancement Costs table, but at the core of things those times are still just a suggestion on how long training should take in a campaign.  As stated, admittedly understatedly, in the Character Advancement rules preceding that table...

[Lormyr]

I hear you. And for anyone who feels like just having guidelines instead of rules in a core rule book is cool, more power to you.

I personally feel like that is nonsense though. A core rule book should be a book of hard rules, possibly with optional rules, not guidelines. That would be like selling a book of potential house rules. I think it's nonsense, but I have no hard feelings to anyone who disagrees.

[penllawen]

I happen to know that the SRM FAQ people thought long and hard about what to do about training times for organized play.
...
But for what it's worth, the CRB's rule is that the GM simply says how long training takes.  the "suggestions" may look like official rules due to being incorporated into the Advancement Costs table, but at the core of things those times are still just a suggestion on how long training should take in a campaign.  As stated, admittedly understatedly, in the Character Advancement rules preceding that table...

It doesn’t matter how carefully you describe something as being merely a suggestion if they are, objectively, just really, really bad ideas.

Let’s be clear: the “suggestions” are six months to take Firearms from 5->6 and a full year to take Agility from 5->6. I cannot imagine anyone’s table being the better for accepting these times. The fact that even the SRM team rejected them should tell you how bad these are, given how closely SRM hews to RAW.

They’re a waste of paper. Just because they’re “suggestions” doesn’t mean it’s OK that they suck. The book would be flat-out better if that table was just completely deleted.

Edit - and actually you’re overselling what the CRB says anyway: “The time it takes to raise any given ability is truly only suggested—the actual time used is up to the gamemaster, with times best fitting the story they want to tell, but we offer the listed times to create a general consensus.” (emphasis mine). That’s a bit stronger than “here’s some numbers, ignore them if you want.” GMs are being encouraged to riff on these numbers, not discard them out of hand.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.

Time is basically a third metacurrency.  It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire.  There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important.  But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.

[Finstersang]

At this point, I have come to like a more "guideline-style" approach instead of "hard rules". But I just can´t help the creeping feeling that this is mostly because the minute you get the "hard rules", they have a high chance to be utter shit.

Just take the new Called Shots in Firing Line. Before these, if a player asked me if he can try to blind or silence an enemy with an Attack, I would have just improvised it with a reasonable penalty (about -4) or, alternatively, a little Edge expenditure. Same for other staples like throwing or tackling your opponents. You just eyeball it. Throw around some Edge tokens, Dice pool or Damage bonuses. You know, fun stuff. But along comes Firing Line with the official "hard rules" and lo and behold, shit´s all over the place:

• Mandatory Edge Taxes for everything? Check.
• Brutally high success thresholds? Check.
• Underwhelming effects in the rare case that the attack actually works? Check.
• No consistency (besides the fact that none of them are worth considering)? Check.

If the "hard rules" (or "suggestions" for them) continue to look like this, spare me the details. I could have easily improvised better and more engaging rules for this straight at the table in under a Minute: "Minus 4 to your Attack roll, if you get net hits, your target is blinded for the same amount of combat rounds." Something like that.

BTW: Training time went right on my "Shit I ignore"-List as well. As if there wasn´t enough incentives for chargen min-maxing...

[penllawen]

What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.

Time is basically a third metacurrency.  It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire.  There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important.  But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.

A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. I’m not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But let’s be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.

[FastJack]

What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.

Time is basically a third metacurrency.  It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire.  There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important.  But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.

A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. I’m not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But let’s be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.

Chill a bit.

Remember, some groups have it set that there may be a year downtime between their runs. Not every group has the characters going one run to another with minimal downtime.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

What works for one campaign doesn't necessarily work for another.

Time is basically a third metacurrency.  It goes along with how much nuyen and/or karma something costs to acquire.  There are reasons why time might be more or less valuable, and therefore the pricing in time is more or less important.  But yes if time is so cheap it approaches "free", then time basically just becomes nothing more than extra nuyen tax in the form of more lifestyle payments during that time.

A freaking year to advance one attribute by one point. A year! You are defending it taking a year! Listen to yourself, man. I’m not saying it should be free. I understand why you might want some time in there. But let’s be reasonable. A year is ridiculous. Surely you know this.

Chill a bit.

Remember, some groups have it set that there may be a year downtime between their runs. Not every group has the characters going one run to another with minimal downtime.

I don't like that particular flavor either, but bear in mind that there's nothing saying you have to train for the whole interval without interruption.  Or that training can't be concurrent.  If it takes a year to raise your attribute, but you still go on shadowruns at the same tempo as if you weren't training, and can still train other stuff too during that time, it's just ending up putting a brake on attribute advancement, even if you have the available karma.

Can I see that being completely reasonable?  Yes, I can.

[Lormyr]

I don't really have anything further of use to add to that particular topic, primarily because both of my opinions that not having a hard rule is nonsense and the offered "guideline consensus" is not a good time frame for average play are firm enough there is no point in going in circles about it since my mind won't change.

That said, I appreciate watching the dialogue unfold, so thanks to everyone weighing in, regardless of what side you fall on.

[Michael Chandra]

Remember, some groups have it set that there may be a year downtime between their runs. Not every group has the characters going one run to another with minimal downtime.

With 3 runs per 2 months, and 3 simultaneous trainings, using both training guidelines and reward guidelines you still run short on karma.