[Annoch]

Indeed.  I like to answer the question of "how do I become unhackable" as being "the same way you become un-magicable: You don't.  You ensure your team has a specialist in that realm to protect you from its threats."

Yes, I'd say it's wrongbadfun to try to go immune to any one of the three of Shadowrun's Worlds.  But of course: YMMV.

Except that it is pretty clear how a mage protects you from Magic.  It appears that they forgot to actually put in rules about your decker protecting the rest of your team from cyber attacks...so I can see why people are so much more worried about that, even though it appears that those rules existed in the last version.

And essentially nothing other than cyber decks have device ratings....so I guess everything has a matrix condition monitor of 8 boxes?  So your $400k wired reflexes is one data spike from a mildly competent script kiddie from being a smoking wreck....

Luckily, the wireless bonuses on nearly everything are simply not worth the risk so you can make yourself invulnerable by simply turning everything off and leaving it that way.

[Shinobi Killfist]

I always felt they went the exact opposite route to how they should have with the wi-fi. You have to accept people making illogical actions for it to work.  Not only does your camera have a port it is easily accessible, its not behind a panel that would take 4-5 turns to remove with a screw driver. People will turn on their cyber to wi-fi even though the benefit to do so is minor.
I'd have preferred to put the effect on the cyber deck.  Let a cyber deck hack and defend things within its range whether or not they are wireless. It uses blah blah technology sending out a energy that allows it to directly interact with technology. Its sci-fi you can say because its future tech we don't understand. The noise crap we have now would exist but only for direct connections.  You want to hack it through the host, you can do that from anywhere on the planet its just going to be damn hard since you are tackling a host. You want to hack that lock directly, good luck past X range, maybe require line of sight but if you are close enough its a routine task. Allow people to hack multiple devices of the same type at once.  You want to hack all the cameras in the room, here you go this is how its done.

When it comes to things like cyber have in the cybers description a list of how/ways it can be hacked. No, spike and melting a characters ware, but you can turn it off and make it difficult to start, maybe have it be able to overclock ware to make it more effective, hacking sensors like cyber eyes or ears you can send false images/sounds, remove the same.

I'd rather say, hmm that tech in my future sci-fi game is a bit of a stretch than say wow security professionals really acts dumb with their wi-fi.

If deckers filled the thief role via opening doors, turning off security and also had a buff/de-buff role with all tech I think they'd be more interesting. I know one of the sprites can or at least could in 5e buff tech, but that should have been a norm for deckers/technomancers though with different mecanics. Like for example if you could increase/decrease a rating of ware knocking it down to 0 effectively turned it off, and allow it to exceed augmented max but with some kind of strain mechanic.  That would be a pretty awesome role. It would also be a nice perk for mundanes, if you made it harder to work on magically active types with ware. And hell make it easier to debuff their ware as well.

[Leith]

I always felt they went the exact opposite route to how they should have with the wi-fi. You have to accept people making illogical actions for it to work.  Not only does your camera have a port it is easily accessible, its not behind a panel that would take 4-5 turns to remove with a screw driver. People will turn on their cyber to wi-fi even though the benefit to do so is minor.
I'd have preferred to put the effect on the cyber deck.  Let a cyber deck hack and defend things within its range whether or not they are wireless. It uses blah blah technology sending out a energy that allows it to directly interact with technology. Its sci-fi you can say because its future tech we don't understand. The noise crap we have now would exist but only for direct connections.  You want to hack it through the host, you can do that from anywhere on the planet its just going to be damn hard since you are tackling a host. You want to hack that lock directly, good luck past X range, maybe require line of sight but if you are close enough its a routine task. Allow people to hack multiple devices of the same type at once.  You want to hack all the cameras in the room, here you go this is how its done.

When it comes to things like cyber have in the cybers description a list of how/ways it can be hacked. No, spike and melting a characters ware, but you can turn it off and make it difficult to start, maybe have it be able to overclock ware to make it more effective, hacking sensors like cyber eyes or ears you can send false images/sounds, remove the same.

I'd rather say, hmm that tech in my future sci-fi game is a bit of a stretch than say wow security professionals really acts dumb with their wi-fi.

If deckers filled the thief role via opening doors, turning off security and also had a buff/de-buff role with all tech I think they'd be more interesting. I know one of the sprites can or at least could in 5e buff tech, but that should have been a norm for deckers/technomancers though with different mecanics. Like for example if you could increase/decrease a rating of ware knocking it down to 0 effectively turned it off, and allow it to exceed augmented max but with some kind of strain mechanic.  That would be a pretty awesome role. It would also be a nice perk for mundanes, if you made it harder to work on magically active types with ware. And hell make it easier to debuff their ware as well.

Or, jammer?

[Xenon]

<<wall of text about how to make RL security safe from being breached and how powering electronic devices wireless via induction is not realistic enough>>

This is a game. A game that features astral space, magic and even dragons.
It is not the GM's job to build perfect fortresses that are impossible for players to penetrate...

Having rebellious cyber-cowboys slicing through corporate IC is a huge part of the setting.
Please accept this.

If deckers filled the thief role via opening doors, turning off security...

This is already their primary role as I see it.

In addition to this matrix search offer a great alternative to contact networking during the 'legwork'-phase of the mission. They are also great in getting the 'lay of the land'-phase of a mission by pulling pay data (such as floor blueprints, patrol schedules etc) from hosts.

In this edition the requirements of becoming a decker (both resource-wise and skill-wise) is also much lower than ever before (save except 4th edition which didn't even have cyberdecks) which make it easier to get a secondary focus (or having hacking as your secondary focus).

... and also had a buff/de-buff role with all tech

It seem as if this is where technomancers come into the picture?

[penllawen]

Rules are more similar to 5th edition than you seem to realize...

I wrote a 43 page document comparing them line-by-line, Xenon. I am familiar.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V-G6O3SOEJuuHBEzpOrTUpT9Owig_GqCUWcPeIZVAx4/edit

So... similar mechanics, just that access now go both upstream and downstream which make access network based (while marks in 5th edition only went upstream which made marks icon based).

You're answering something I didn't ask. What I said was "you can only hack PANs/Hosts and not devices, I think most people's reading of RAW means every minor hack of an exterior camera is now a full-on host dive unless the GM invents some handwaving reasons". I didn't ask for a comparison of 5e and 6e. Bashee's work has made 6e's Matrix rules better, but there's still plenty wrong (I suspect because of sacred cows he wasn't allowed to slaughter.)

Let me restate my issue, in case I wasn't clear. In 6e, icons can be: (a) inside a host or (b) not inside a host.

If an icon is inside a host, you can't do anything to it without being inside the host first. (pg 185 "The virtual space in a host is separate from the Matrix at large, and any icons on that host are not accessible unless expressly part of a public-facing side. Gaining access to a host will allow interaction with the icons and devices on the inside.")

I cannot think of any reason why a corp wouldn't put its cameras and maglocks and personnel's guns inside its host. But if they do, I'm struggling to see what the new no-marks Spoof Command is really for.

In this edition direct connection let you ignore nestled hosts. This meant you could for example establish a direct connection to an exposed device, such as a maglock. Hack that to gain access on both the maglock and the host (but in this edition you also gain access on all other devices that are also part of the host). Then enter the nestled host (without doing a deep dive through all the outer layers of the onion) to gain a direct connection to the camera. Since you already have access there is no need to hack the camera so you just take the Edit File action directly.

I think this is a nonsensical reading, so much so I think I must be misreading you. Suppose you have a setup with a building control host A. Inside that is a security host, B, where the cameras and turrets are attached. Also inside A, but not inside B, is a beefy firewall host, C. Inside C is a juicy datastore hose D.

Leaving aside for a moment that we're almost back to the bad old days of second edition pizza break hacking, are you suggesting that a direct connection to a camera (on host B) allows you to jump directly to host D, bypassing hacks on hosts A and C?

I don't think that makes any sense at all. Maybe you can contort that one sentence in RAW to read that way, but I suspect it's not RAI. Banshee? Can you comment?

This is a case where game design breaks common sense. And its been this way since 4e.

Yeah. All I want is a game with a set of rules that can fit inside my feeble brain, that are internally consistent, and that don't make me go "wait, but why?!" more than, say, once a session.

Sadly, it seems to be too much to ask of Catalyst.

Don't get me wrong. This is not a dig at Banshee. He(she) Did the best they could given what they had to work with. No fault of foul there.

+1, to avoid any doubt. Reading between the lines a little, I think Banshee was given latitude to make incremental changes only. He made very good ones. I also think the Matrix rules in 4/5/6e Shadowrun can't be made to sing with just incremental changes. I would very much like to see what would happen if Banshee was given free reign.

And wirelessly recharging batteries is already a thing in RL... it's within my bounds for suspension of disbelief that devices can be powered 24/7 by wireless energy.

For the record: I am OK with buying into wireless power delivery via the Matrix. I realise it's almost completely unexplainable via modern physics. But I'll swallow that pill in order to never give a shit about the battery life on my PC's commlinks, because - and I cannot stress this enough - fuck that noise.

However:

Look, if the game has to conform to physics, dragons and fireballs are out the window.
...
My background is in IT... the matrix rules are much more fun for me when I remember to willfully ignore reality and go with movie logic and what's "fun" and what's feasibly playable.

This is a game. A game that features astral space, magic and even dragons.
It is not the GM's job to build perfect fortresses that are impossible for players to penetrate...

Having rebellious cyber-cowboys slicing through corporate IC is a huge part of the setting.
Please accept this.

Yes, but also no. I don't think it's quite that simple. It's the dreaded "verisimilitude" argument again.

I'm down with dragons and wireless charging and "if you can plug into the port on the security camera, you can hack it more easily." But I'm not down with "...and yet, the corps don't do anything to block that port up, because if they did the rebellious cyber-cowboys would be fucked." Because the former are fundamental pieces of the setting's premise. The latter is a logical consequence of that premise, yet one that goes unanswered. Mechanically, the game answers it - it's that way because the game demands it. It's circular logic but there it is. But there's not enough support for that in the fiction. Inside the universe, the coprs explicitly have both the tools and the resources to make "perfect fortresses" and yet they... just don't. So you end up with ludo-narrative dissonance, and no option other than to pretend it's not there, and it's annoying.

Same thing with phone calls. It drives me nuts that we have rules for noise (clearly engineered only for game mechanic reasons, to get deckers out of their apartments and into the field.) But that breaks everything else, so we have hosts that... magically never suffer from noise, for no reason that makes any sense. And now you can't call London from Seattle without a pocket satellite link. Maybe you route calls via hosts...? But that's never described anywhere, and if you can route calls via hosts, can you route other stuff? Hacking traffic?

It's all such a mess of contradictions and inconsistencies and unstated assumptions. Xenon knows this better than most of us , because he spends endless hours answering questions about it, on here and Reddit. For some reason he keeps insisting it's all fine, though.

Indeed.  I like to answer the question of "how do I become unhackable" as being "the same way you become un-magicable: You don't.  You ensure your team has a specialist in that realm to protect you from its threats."

Yes, I'd say it's wrongbadfun to try to go immune to any one of the three of Shadowrun's Worlds.  But of course: YMMV.

Uh: be a hobo mage who doesn't own a commlink? Be a physad carrying a burner commlink that's only used to broadcast a fake SIN? Be a streetsam using an internal router? Be a streetsam who's just willing to give up a few dice of wireless bonuses? Be a rigger driving a pre-2075 Matrix-2.0 vehicle via direct connection? Be a Barrens ganger who can't afford a commlink?

Aren't there tons of ways to become unhackable?

In particular, consider the trope of the offline host: eg. an Azzie corp facility in the middle of the jungle with a host full of juicy R&D paydata. You want to invoke the trope that everything's wirelessly hackable: fine. But another trope is mercenaries fighting into compounds to get data. You can't have both tropes.

Why doesn't the decker stay at home in their cosy apartment, and hack remotely? Or hire a streetsam to plug a magic dongle into a slot? Shadowrun has no real answer, just fudges and guesses and mechanics that don't mesh with fluff. Perhaps that's enough for you, and more power to your elbow if so. I'd like more, personally. I don't think it's too much to hope for.

[penllawen]

Sorry, missed this out of my replies above.

you make it sound as if hacking the 'whole host' is this big thing.... Take the brute force action (once) and you will have User access on the host, the camera and all other devices that are also part of the host. This is resolved as one single test.

Compared to rolling one Spoof Command action against an individual camera? Yes, it is. Because once the decker hacks the host, you have GOD on the table, you have at least Patrol IC on the table, and maybe offensive IC will come into play. It's immediately more complex. Also, there's probably a lot more dice being rolled against the decker than a hack of a standalone device, so the decker's gonna think about their decisions, maybe reconfigure their deck first, etc etc. It's a significantly bigger deal than just hacking the camera, in terms of mechanics that must be invoked, in terms of things for the GM to track, and in terms of potential consequences in the fiction.

[Banshee]

Because I was specifically asked to comment...

Xenon has it right, a direct connection allows you to bypass the nested host. What that means is if the camera is inside Host B by direct connection to the camera you can gain access to Host B without going through Host A. It also means you can then try to gain access to any nested Host that B is connected to.
So if it's a linear hierarchy... A then B then C ... a direct connection to B means you never have to worry about A if you want to get to C.

In the long run it adds a layer of complexity that is heavily influenced by 3E, but I felt that with the changes made to the actions (especially economy) as well as making access requirements dependent on the network and not devices alleviated the pizza run hack days. I found during playtest that a "deep dive host hack" didn't require any more time or actions than a street sam taking out a few thugs.

[penllawen]

Xenon has it right, a direct connection allows you to bypass the nested host. What that means is if the camera is inside Host B by direct connection to the camera you can gain access to Host B without going through Host A. It also means you can then try to gain access to any nested Host that B is connected to.
So if it's a linear hierarchy... A then B then C ... a direct connection to B means you never have to worry about A if you want to get to C.

Thanks Banshee. That's how I thought it worked.

I read this post by Xenon:

In this edition direct connection let you ignore nestled hosts. This meant you could for example establish a direct connection to an exposed device, such as a maglock. Hack that to gain access on both the maglock and the host (but in this edition you also gain access on all other devices that are also part of the host). Then enter the nestled host (without doing a deep dive through all the outer layers of the onion) to gain a direct connection to the camera.

as suggesting you can move onto a host within B automatically, or even other nested hosts within host A, without it being a further hack. But that might just be how that post is worded and not what he meant.

In the long run it adds a layer of complexity that is heavily influenced by 3E, but I felt that with the changes made to the actions (especially economy) as well as making access requirements dependent on the network and not devices alleviated the pizza run hack days. I found during playtest that a "deep dive host hack" didn't require any more time or actions than a street sam taking out a few thugs.

Yeah, I think that's fair. I'd add that another difference in 6e compared to 1/2/3e is that the hostmaps are much smaller and can be reserved for special occasions. As I recall the old days, even very small hosts had half a dozen nodes. My reading of 6e is that most places are still one host, and occasionally for really big stuff, the GM might throw in a 2-3 nested hosts. Which means GMs can reserve hostmaps for circumstances where they are confident they can pull off the spotlight management, as opposed to being faced with dealing with it routinely.

[Banshee]

Yes ... nested Hosts are not the standard and should be used only when the GM wants that added layer of complexity and/or security.

[Michael Chandra]

So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.

[Banshee]

So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.

Exactly... I left as much as possible open ended on purpose so everything can be tailored to the specific group style.

Honestly the only "majorly" negative feedback I've seen are from people who feel the flexibility is a detriment rather than a strength (or need every little thing spelled out for them).

[Hobbes]

Yes ... nested Hosts are not the standard and should be used only when the GM wants that added layer of complexity and/or security.

In game, Hosts should be thought of as very expensive.  And a Nested Host could just be an arguably more secure larger single Host for the same budget.

To Reaver's salient point about "run the data lines when you run the power lines..."   Everything is Wireless, even your socks.  So clearly your socks Wireless functionality is pulling power from Somewhere.  If you need to justify it, presume the Sci-fi optical circuitry is several orders of magnitude more effective than current equivalents.  Nanoscale power generation from air pressure changes, ambient light energy combined with Sci-fi battery efficiency and possibly some degree of Microwave broadcast power keeps things running for months on a single charge.

I mean, we don't ask where the Jedi Light Saber charger stations are.  Why are we worried about the wireless socks energy use?

And as to why are Security systems Wireless?  Because Hosts aren't physical and you literally can't run wires to them.  They're wireless because they have to be in order to work in the Sixth World.

[Michael Chandra]

So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.

Exactly... I left as much as possible open ended on purpose so everything can be tailored to the specific group style.

Honestly the only "majorly" negative feedback I've seen are from people who feel the flexibility is a detriment rather than a strength (or need every little thing spelled out for them).

To be fair, I can understand 'I never know how tough a Matrix run will be due to these hidden extra options', since the book doesn't explicitly note for GMs 'hey this is a balance tool, use it wisely'. But honestly that sounds like it's something between GM and players to talk out.

[Banshee]

So Spiderless Hosts are a way to make it easier on Hackers while still having a big security stepup ready, while Nested Hosts are a good way to force a Decker to infiltrate a facility to reach the proper jackin-point, and counter '1 big move and out again' playstyles. More tools to balance Matrix toughness this way.

Exactly... I left as much as possible open ended on purpose so everything can be tailored to the specific group style.

Honestly the only "majorly" negative feedback I've seen are from people who feel the flexibility is a detriment rather than a strength (or need every little thing spelled out for them).

To be fair, I can understand 'I never know how tough a Matrix run will be due to these hidden extra options', since the book doesn't explicitly note for GMs 'hey this is a balance tool, use it wisely'. But honestly that sounds like it's something between GM and players to talk out.

Well there is the issue of the whole GM section being pretty lightweight, there is some development reasons for that which are still hidden behind NDA. If that section could have been expanded a lot of that would have been covered.

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

It's a wireless world.  You can struggle against it or you can embrace it.

For me, the "why would anyone accept the inherent risks" comes down to two things:

For Joe Pedestrians:  Are you flipping serious in that they're somehow more security minded than real world people who willingly walk around with smart phones 24/7? 
Remember: EVERYTHING is wireless.  Being some sort of "I don't want to be hacked" kook looks to people in the Sixth world like people who insist electricity causes the plague look to the rest of us in the real world.  It's at least as hard to go truly wireless in the Sixth World as it is to live without electricity in the real world.  Yes, it's theoretically possible.  No, not without fundamentally forsaking modern society entirely.

For Security Managers:  Ok, sure, it's plausible that despite being acclimated to the "everyone else accepts the risks of wirelessness, why shouldn't I?" groupthink inherent to the denizens of the Sixth World they're MORE security minded than your average Joe.  However there's never been a Security Manager who was handed an unlimited budget.  Nope, not even that one time you're tempted to bring up.

Indeed.  I like to answer the question of "how do I become unhackable" as being "the same way you become un-magicable: You don't.  You ensure your team has a specialist in that realm to protect you from its threats."

Yes, I'd say it's wrongbadfun to try to go immune to any one of the three of Shadowrun's Worlds.  But of course: YMMV.

Uh: be a hobo mage who doesn't own a commlink? Be a physad carrying a burner commlink that's only used to broadcast a fake SIN? Be a streetsam using an internal router? Be a streetsam who's just willing to give up a few dice of wireless bonuses? Be a rigger driving a pre-2075 Matrix-2.0 vehicle via direct connection? Be a Barrens ganger who can't afford a commlink?

Aren't there tons of ways to become unhackable?

Even the physad who doesn't use any cyberware and only ever uses a burner commlink still presumably has weapons.  And armor.  If not armor, at least clothing. Possibly a vehicle.  Contacts/Glasses/Goggles and earbuds are every bit as hackable as cybereyes and cyberears.  So long as you employ any gear whatsoever, you're hackable.

What if all your gear has no wireless bonus so you turn them all off, that makes sense, right?  Not if you're trying to avoid sticking out like a sore thumb.  If you're the ONE person in the entire bar who doesn't have a cloud of AROs for all your stuff (shoes, socks, shirt, underwear, etc) how long do you think before Security comes to check out the wierdo who's either some sort of bizarre Amish sect they've never heard of, or more likely, is someone who's up to no good?  Going naked in AR is about as noticeable as going naked physically, when everyone else is using AR.  In lots of places, going naked in AR is probably as socially unacceptable as going naked physically, to boot!

In particular, consider the trope of the offline host: eg. an Azzie corp facility in the middle of the jungle with a host full of juicy R&D paydata. You want to invoke the trope that everything's wirelessly hackable: fine. But another trope is mercenaries fighting into compounds to get data. You can't have both tropes.

I don't even follow what you're saying here.  In what way are the two incompatible?
Maybe the site only has periodic connectivity to the rest of the matrix, and your job is to get in there and get the data before the next scheduled hookup for data transfer.
Maybe the paydata can't be wirelessly accessed because the files are archived in offline storage. The only way to get the file is to physically go grab a chip from a vault.
Etc.