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Leadership?

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bmoham

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« on: <07-16-18/1635:22> »
I'm wondering what people think about the leaderships skill. Are any of the uses particularly useful? Do you think a character built around maxing it out would be viable? Obviously maxing out leadership isn't going to take all or even most of the character creation points, but if that were the go-to action for a character (who had, say 15-20 dice in it) how often would that be effective?
On a related note, how does the leadership work with surprise? Inspire works on the team's surprise test, but how does that work? Would you have to make your inspire check as an immediate/free/out of initiative action before anyone rolled for surprise? Am I just missing something obvious?

Thanks

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #1 on: <07-16-18/1648:59> »
Leadership is a mechanic that's broken-good, not broken-bad.

By RAW it's basically an ability to spend a complex action to roll your leadership and give the hits to another PC's task.  It's up to the GM to limit shenanigans on this, particularly in combat as melee attacks are supposed to use one of several different mechanics other than the usual leadership to assist one another attacking the same target.

But what makes it so good is (by RAW) you don't have to have any ability, skill, or know-how to assist the other character.  So even if the Decker has 15-20 dice for hacking, you can kibitz what she's doing and still give her more dice to use even if you don't know the difference between hot sim and cold sim.  Even if the mage has 15-20 dice for conjuring spirits, you can give him more dice by "leading" him through the summoning even if you don't know the difference between mages and shamans. Etc.

There are lots of times where one character is doing his "niche" thing... be it technical, matrix, social or what-have-you. The Leadership character gives them all an enhancement at doing what they do.  And no matter how good they are at it, it's the rare player who turns away extra dice to help ensure their character pulls off their schtick.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #2 on: <07-16-18/1701:34> »
SSDR is right, the Leadership skill is extremely useful and nearly limitless uses in the situations it can be used. However, it is also still fairly limited in how effective that use of leadership really will be:

It functions like using Teamwork, which means that if you are already working as a team on a task, that assistance can be redundant because the intended target is already getting the maximum number of bonus dice (and not getting close to hitting their limit). And while a couple extra dice on a test can often be useful, it may not be as useful as something else the "leader" could have done instead.

If a GM is having trouble with over-extended use of leadership, I would say one of the easier ways to explain why the Leadership skill couldn't be used to assist is because all of those uses of leadership require that the target see them as a legitimate leader. For example, whenever I GM I don't let the face use Leadership to assist or boost spirits, because spirits only view their summoner as their leader. A decker might not see the face with no computer skills as a viable leader to assist them in their Hacking endeavors.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <07-16-18/1812:14> »
Of possible interest: the SRM FAQ 1.1 lays out some guidelines on limiting Leadership shenanigans.  That may or may not affect your game or your GM's sensibilities about what's (not) allowed.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

bmoham

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« Reply #4 on: <07-16-18/2018:53> »
Of possible interest: the SRM FAQ 1.1 lays out some guidelines on limiting Leadership shenanigans.  That may or may not affect your game or your GM's sensibilities about what's (not) allowed.

What page? It's a big doc, so I probably missed it, but I skimmed the sections I thought were most relevant and did a search for "leadership".

Hobbes

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« Reply #5 on: <07-16-18/2117:48> »
Technomancer Cheerleader build, one of the most powerful in the game (IMO).  Basically double everyone's skill pools, and throw in a half dozen Machine Sprites running Diagnostics.  And gives you some RP justification for Leadership bonuses.  You're pumping over detailed AR instructions as fast as you can think of them.  Highlighting weak spots, prompting social cues, pointing out tells in real time, overlaying schematics, Sprites making minute adjustments, ect, ect, ect.

Leadership is a flat out silly skill if you think about 3 second combat turns too much. 

Plus it gives you an excuse to use that Elf Cheerleader Blood Bowl figurine you bought, even though you've never played Blood Bowl.  You know the one.

Marcus

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« Reply #6 on: <07-16-18/2149:05> »
Leadership and small unit tactics are very interesting character options. TM cheerleader works even better. That said there is a But in this. Leadership and Small unit tactics, still need competent help to assist, the level of bonuses it offers are interesting and more importantly can the single most critical thing in combat Initiative. But Leadership, will make the strong stronger, it strengthen the weak but it's not going to non-combat builds effective in combat.

So think carefully before making that cheerleader build. Show up a table where no one has more then 12 dice in shooting, and your not going to like the result very much.
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Xenon

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« Reply #7 on: <07-17-18/0419:17> »
Are any of the uses particularly useful?
I'd say that all four uses are useful, but in different situations;

* It's just like Intimidate or Con, except rather than threatening or using deception you're using a position of authority to get a NPC to do what you want

* Similar to the diagnostics power from a machine sprite, you may use it as teamwork skill without knowing the specific skill you are assisting

* You may inspire the entire team to get more dice to resist a surprising situation

* You can use it to increase the Initiative Score of your entire team


Do you think a character built around maxing it out would be viable?
Are you asking if the Face archetype is viable...? (yes it is).


how often would that be effective?
With the use of supporting skills such as Impersonation and Disguise the skill can be extra useful during the infiltration phase of a run against facilities that have guards that are used to follow the chain of command (note that in some situations Intimidate or Con will be better options, but with a Charisma build you often get all 3 skills anyway). Leadership increase the chance your team are not surprised during an ambush (which is useful in almost every surprise situation). Leadership may be used to increase the dice pool and limit on a single test that any of your teammates take (which is useful pretty much always). During combat Leadership also increase the Initiative Score of your entire team (which is useful every combat turn).


On a related note, how does the leadership work with surprise? Inspire works on the team's surprise test, but how does that work? Would you have to make your inspire check as an immediate/free/out of initiative action before anyone rolled for surprise? Am I just missing something obvious?
That is actually a really good question.

Personally I don't see how rolling for Inspire after people already became surprised and lost their initiative score would be resolved. Except maybe in the corner case where the leader have really high reaction + intuition (so they are not surprised in the first place) and really high initiative score (so they can use Inspire before their teammates acted in the first combat phase). Also, would teammates get +10 initiative score retroactively if the extra dice from Inspire mean they didn't become surprised in the first place...? It is kind of a mess if you ask me.

I always just played it out as: "I am keeping the team Inspired in case we walk into a surprise situation" and just resolved the surprise situation by:
1. Roll for Inspire.
2. Roll for Surprise.
3. Roll for Initiative.



So even if the Decker has 15-20 dice for hacking, you can kibitz what she's doing and still give her more dice to use even if you don't know the difference between hot sim and cold sim.  Even if the mage has 15-20 dice for conjuring spirits, you can give him more dice by "leading" him through the summoning even if you don't know the difference between mages and shamans. Etc.
Leadership used in this manner is not so much about "leading the target through the hacking or summoning process" as it is about coaxing, convincing, threatening, or challenging the target... you are building confidence, removing fear, relaxing, inspiring and/or triggering the target. You make the target more focused.

Similar to that a 2018 scrum master doesn't really need to be a software developer, but he or she can still use his or her servant-leadership skill to inspire and challenge the scrum team to deliver working software, faster.
« Last Edit: <07-17-18/0421:15> by Xenon »

Beta

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« Reply #8 on: <07-17-18/0943:14> »

That is actually a really good question.

Personally I don't see how rolling for Inspire after people already became surprised and lost their initiative score would be resolved. Except maybe in the corner case where the leader have really high reaction + intuition (so they are not surprised in the first place) and really high initiative score (so they can use Inspire before their teammates acted in the first combat phase). Also, would teammates get +10 initiative score retroactively if the extra dice from Inspire mean they didn't become surprised in the first place...? It is kind of a mess if you ask me.

I always just played it out as: "I am keeping the team Inspired in case we walk into a surprise situation" and just resolved the surprise situation by:
1. Roll for Inspire.
2. Roll for Surprise.
3. Roll for Initiative.

Which to me makes sense, in that a leader can help the team keep all of the angles covered, keep  being wary, etc, and presumably makes sure they know how to quickly communicate key information.

Tecumseh

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« Reply #9 on: <07-18-18/0206:56> »
Of possible interest: the SRM FAQ 1.1 lays out some guidelines on limiting Leadership shenanigans.  That may or may not affect your game or your GM's sensibilities about what's (not) allowed.

I just searched through FAQ 1.1 and I couldn't find anything about this. If you can provide a page reference, or copy-and-paste the relevant passage, that would be wiz.

Myriad

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« Reply #10 on: <07-18-18/0946:56> »
I love it, and don't think it's too game breaking inside combat.

* Rally even with the best leadership check is maybe 3 to 5, so unless a lot of characters are at the cusp, and gives a face type something to do in combat besides shoot.
* Inspire is the same, assuming they have max ranks, it's 6 extra dice.. or on average 2 hits.  Great for the very dodgey targets.
*  Commanding voice, I'm usually not a fan of save or suck things but I tend to be biased as adepts aren't mages and it only lasts unail their neXT action.  That said, adding it to a mystic adept is kinda bad since usually a spell is better. 

Outside of combat is where you need to be cautious and say...

* Does the person view them as a leader?
* if not, you need to make the one time check to force them to view you as such.
* leave it to roleplay not rollplay.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <07-18-18/0948:14> »
Of possible interest: the SRM FAQ 1.1 lays out some guidelines on limiting Leadership shenanigans.  That may or may not affect your game or your GM's sensibilities about what's (not) allowed.

I just searched through FAQ 1.1 and I couldn't find anything about this. If you can provide a page reference, or copy-and-paste the relevant passage, that would be wiz.

pg 31:

Quote from: Combined SRM Section 8: Shadowrun 5th Edition (pg 31)
What are the limits to making teamwork tests?
Any test involving a skill + attribute is potentially eligible for a teamwork test per the rules on page 49, SR5, unless specifically disallowed elsewhere in source material. Rules for specific types of teamwork tests, such as the Direct or Inspire action (SR5, pg 142), Melee Teamwork (SR5, pg 188), Group Summoning (SR5, pg 300), Combat Teamwork (R&G, pg 98) etc. take precedence over the default rules on page 49.
GMs may limit participants in any given teamwork test, down to zero, based on conceivability of assistance. For instance, a shadowrunner with Gymnastics could not assist another runner with a Gymnastics + Agility or Gymnastics + Strength test if they were not actually present. Only two, maybe three, individuals could work together to open a mechanical lock without getting in each other’s way.

Edit:  And only after posting this did it click that's about teamwork rather than Leadership.  Ah, well perhaps some of the same writers' intention applies to Leadership as well, particularly the second half.
« Last Edit: <07-18-18/0955:31> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Hobbes

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« Reply #12 on: <07-18-18/1115:12> »
Edit:  And only after posting this did it click that's about teamwork rather than Leadership.  Ah, well perhaps some of the same writers' intention applies to Leadership as well, particularly the second half.

Leadership tests are Teamwork tests so it applies.

Xenon

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« Reply #13 on: <07-18-18/1309:33> »
...particularly the second half.
Rules for specific types of teamwork tests, such as the Direct ... take precedence...

The two examples (or "the second paragraph" if you will) are both aimed at putting a reasonable limit on number of assistants during a "regular" teamwork test because otherwise they would physically get in each other's way while using the same skill as the leader of the test. The same physical limitation would normally not apply to a leader (as he or she is more likely to stand back and just talk to the subject rather than physically getting in the way).... or a machine sprite for that matter.

a shadowrunner with Gymnastics could not assist another runner with a Gymnastics + Agility or Gymnastics + Strength test if they were not actually present.

In addition to assistants that are physically present using their Gymnastics + Agility or Gymnastics + Strength test you could probably also have a Leader using Direct (Leadership + Charisma) though an inspiring speech (maybe even via DNI communication).


Only two, maybe three, individuals could work together to open a mechanical lock without getting in each other’s way.

In addition to two or maybe three assistants that are physically present working together on the same Locksmith + Agility test you could probably also have a Leader using Direct (Leadership + Charisma) though an inspiring speech (maybe even via DNI communication).


Having said that, I guess it would not be too unreasonable for a GM to put a limit on the number of leaders (or machine sprites for that matter) that may contribute to a single test using Direct (or Diagnostics).


....then again, no matter how many assistants (including sprites or directing coaches) you have the and no matter how many hits they get the most dice that can be added to the test is equal to the leader’s rating in the applicable skill, or the highest attribute rating if the test involves two attributes (SR5 p. 49).
« Last Edit: <07-18-18/1322:31> by Xenon »

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #14 on: <07-18-18/1343:51> »
Well, you can't have more than one person  using Direct on the same target at the same time. One of the restrictions on Leadership is that the target must accept the "leader" as the one person leading them.