NEWS

Adept Powers

  • 48 Replies
  • 4062 Views

RickDeckard

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 126
  • It can't rain all the time.
« on: <01-27-19/0846:00> »
I have two questions, one I see has been discussed before, but I'd like to hear specific views on this since it's been a while.

1: As an Adept, am I allowed to change my powers once I've picked them? Like, when I Initiate for instance, can I shuffle my power points around, drop levels in one power, raise another etc?

2: Attribute boost (STR): According to previous discussion and RAW this increase in strength does not affect anything other than dice pools. I find it very odd that it wouldn't affect you DV with unarmed combat. It seems like that would be the most obvious and direct reason for using this power and if it makes my physically stronger then why wouldn't increase my DV?

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #1 on: <01-27-19/1011:47> »
1. No.

2. It does effect your damage, what it's saying is the power doesn't effect derived values like Limit, or Initiative which are the result multiple attributes.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4290
« Reply #2 on: <01-27-19/1038:04> »
1) 99% no, but technically there is a way to do it... a little.  If you accept an essence hit (augmentation, get addicted, etc) you'll correspondingly lose some adept powers. IIRC you get to pick which one(s) you lose.  Then later when you buy magic back with karma, you're not under any requirement to re-buy the same adept powers.

2) While the rule IS actually clear that DV does not benefit from Attribute boost since it is a derived value, it's still apparently pretty common to house rule/allow Strength Boost to increase DV during the effect.

As for why by RAW it doesn't... think of the ability being more intended for "Feats of X Attribute" than pure combat relevance.  Boosting strength is "intended" for those times when you want to lift the car off the decker, or crowbar the safe open, or etc.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #3 on: <01-27-19/1240:41> »
1) 99% no, but technically there is a way to do it... a little.  If you accept an essence hit (augmentation, get addicted, etc) you'll correspondingly lose some adept powers. IIRC you get to pick which one(s) you lose.  Then later when you buy magic back with karma, you're not under any requirement to re-buy the same adept powers.

Or you could just spend the same karma and get more powers points...

2) While the rule IS actually clear that DV does not benefit from Attribute boost since it is a derived value, it's still apparently pretty common to house rule/allow Strength Boost to increase DV during the effect.

As for why by RAW it doesn't... think of the ability being more intended for "Feats of X Attribute" than pure combat relevance.  Boosting strength is "intended" for those times when you want to lift the car off the decker, or crowbar the safe open, or etc.

I disagree. It calls out what does not change and damage is not listed. Damage is nether a limit nor a derived attribute i.e. Initiative. It's a rating, that run upon one attribute that being strength. Further as I recall the adjustable bow specifically from hard target references it, adding damage.

 Further it would make no sense not to, as boost agi, certainly does add to your to hit pool, and there for damage. So by saying that you make one boosted attribute many times more effective then any another.


« Last Edit: <01-27-19/1243:10> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4290
« Reply #4 on: <01-27-19/1328:13> »
I disagree. It calls out what does not change and damage is not listed. Damage is nether a limit nor a derived attribute i.e. Initiative. It's a rating, that run upon one attribute that being strength. Further as I recall the adjustable bow specifically from hard target references it, adding damage.

That's a faulty way to argue it.  It doesn't do everything except what it says it doesn't to.  It only does what it says it does.  That's Rules Lawyering 101.

To quote the exact rule:
Quote
When you activate this power, make a Magic + Attribute
Boost Rating Test. Each hit on this test boosts
your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute
maximum. This only affects your dice pools; your
Physical limit and Initiative ratings donít change with
Attribute Boost.
(bolded for emphasis)

"This only affects your dice pools." That's the first clause of the compound sentence.  The semicolon indicates that although the first and second clause are sufficiently related to be included in the same sentence, the first is not dependent upon the second.

"This only affects your dice pools." is pretty much as clear as can possibly be said that the effect of this power doesn't go any further than dice pools. The second clause simply clarifying what was already said: "Limits and initiative ratings are not dice pools".  Everything else that isn't a dice pool (for example DV) is still NOT a dice pool, despite not being listed as not being a dice pool.

Quote
Further it would make no sense not to, as boost agi, certainly does add to your to hit pool, and there for damage. So by saying that you make one boosted attribute many times more effective then any another.

Well that's a quirk of the game engine that goes way beyond Attribute Boost.  Saying Strength Boost does count towards DV in your game doesn't change AGI being the virtual end-all-be-all stat for combat capability.  If you want to argue interpretation and "shoulda's", I'll submit that the clarification that Attribute Boost doesn't affect limits or initiative is an additional implicit statement that Attribute Boost affects no derived values at all, which would clearly mean no DV as it's derived from STR.
« Last Edit: <01-27-19/1340:11> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Beta

  • *
  • Ace Runner
  • ****
  • Posts: 1836
  • SR1 player, SR5 GM@FtF & player@PbP
« Reply #5 on: <01-27-19/1434:06> »
There is no rules to let you change around your adept powers, but if it is a home game then talk with your GM.  "To avoid spending hours trying to predict what I want, could we review my adept powers after a couple of runs and consider tweaks once I have a better feel for them?"
Tipperman  --
speechthoughtmatrix

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4290
« Reply #6 on: <01-27-19/1505:26> »
Something you could do for "hot swapping" some Adept Powers is to have multiple Qi Foci.

Activate the one with Killing Hands when you anticipate combat.  Activate the one with social adept powers when you're going to a meet. Etc.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #7 on: <01-27-19/1535:41> »

Well that's a quirk of the game engine that goes way beyond Attribute Boost.  Saying Strength Boost does count towards DV in your game doesn't change AGI being the virtual end-all-be-all stat for combat capability.  If you want to argue interpretation and "shoulda's", I'll submit that the clarification that Attribute Boost doesn't affect limits or initiative is an additional implicit statement that Attribute Boost affects no derived values at all, which would clearly mean no DV as it's derived from STR.

The purpose of the rules is for the GM to interpret what the writer intentions were to use them, too run a fun game. You're welcome to rules lawyer all the live long day, I spend a lot of time with lawyers, believe me, one bull sh!t artist is not gonna fool another, and your certainly not going convince me argument as weak as that.  God knows you and I have read the same quote plenty often and come away from it interpretations that are diametrically opposite. Its clearly what's intended, as it is what agility does, no reason strength shouldn't also work. Saying that is just quirk of the system, and we are just helplessly to do anything but slavishly follow one interpretation of the text is just willful ignorance. Free your mind SSRD the rest will follow! Clearly it's time to submit it for clarification and errata.


*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4290
« Reply #8 on: <01-27-19/1543:11> »
You're also free to believe whatever you want to believe, but I take issue with claiming what I'm saying is bulldrek.

The rule clearly says the ability only applies to dice pools.  It goes on to say that two specific things that are not dice pools explicitly do not benefit from it.

If you want to argue that a third thing that is not a dice pool DOES benefit from an ability that only applies to dice pools.. well let's just leave it at my disagreeing that's a logically sound argument.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #9 on: <01-27-19/1645:14> »
Attribute Boost (STR) doesn't make you stronger, it boosts your ability to perform feats of Strength.

For example, it doesn't increase the amount you can carry (derived stat based on attributes), but it does improve your ability to lift heavy objects (Lift/Carry Attribute Test)

By a similar metric, boosting Agility would improve your ability to jump (better dicepool), but would not alter the limits for maximum jumping distances, which are derived values based on Agility.

Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW. And as far as I recall, there haven't been any responses to this topic previously to indicate that the author's intent was to have it the other way either.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6299
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #10 on: <01-27-19/1747:21> »
The power you are looking for is:

Quote
IMPROVED
PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTE
Cost: 1 PP per level
This power allows you to increase a physical attribute
(Body, Agility, Reaction, and Strength). This augments
your attribute, so your Physical limit may also increase
with the new Attribute rating. This power allows you to
exceed your natural Attribute maximum, up to your augmented
maximum.

Note the differences in the cost, language and terms. (will link boost below in full.)

Quote
ATTRIBUTE BOOST
(ATTRIBUTE)
Cost: 0.25 PP per level
Activation: Simple Action
You call upon inner strength to perform amazing physical
feats beyond their normal abilities. Attribute Boost must
be purchased for a specific Physical Attribute (Agility, Body,
Reaction, or Strength); separate Attribute Boost powers
may be bought for different attributes. This power cannot
be purchased for a Mental or Special Attribute.
When you activate this power, make a Magic + Attribute
Boost Rating Test. Each hit on this test boosts
your attribute rating by 1, up to your augmented Attribute
maximum. This only affects your dice pools; your
Physical limit and Initiative ratings donít change with
Attribute Boost. The boost lasts for a number of Combat
Turns equal to twice the number of hits you get.
When the boost runs out, you take Drain equal to the
level of this power.

You want the increases all the way around, you have to "pay" for it.... You want a tiny boost for a limited time, you pay less for it...

And when you compare the costs of Boosted Attribute to Improved Attribute to improved Ability (the skill increase power) the limits of Boosted becomes a little clearer.



As to "hot swapping" your powers, sadly no there is no in game mechanic. Once you have picked, you have it forever.

However, this really only matters for Missions. I have found many GMs are little more tolerant of powers changes if there was an honest mistake in picking a power. Other options I have seen used when this issue has come up at my tables are:

Initiation ability: If you initiate, instead of getting a meta-magic feat for free, you could re-pick all your powers.

Meta-planar quest: Go on a meta-planar quest to unlearn and relearn powers.

Spirit Pack: Make a pack with a Spirit to "relearn" your powers.



Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #11 on: <01-27-19/1826:18> »
There is also the Qi Sculpt metamagic in Street Grimoire, which let's you temporarily move your PP between powers that you have. SG pg, 156

PiXeL01

  • *
  • Errata Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 2264
  • Sheltering Orks in Osaka
« Reply #12 on: <01-27-19/1959:43> »
At my table (not Missions) we allow character rebuilds between missions of the players are not completely satisfied with their character. In general the gentlemanís agreement is you cannot drop something you have used a lot unless discussed with the GM council of two.
If Tom Bradyís a Spike Baby, what does that make Brees and Rodgers?

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #13 on: <01-27-19/2302:00> »
Attribute Boost (STR) doesn't make you stronger, it boosts your ability to perform feats of Strength.

For example, it doesn't increase the amount you can carry (derived stat based on attributes), but it does improve your ability to lift heavy objects (Lift/Carry Attribute Test)

By a similar metric, boosting Agility would improve your ability to jump (better dicepool), but would not alter the limits for maximum jumping distances, which are derived values based on Agility.

Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW. And as far as I recall, there haven't been any responses to this topic previously to indicate that the author's intent was to have it the other way either.

I'm putting in Kiir, if agility adds to attack pool, which it does, then agi adds to damage. Thus strength should add to damage as well. Otherwise the power makes no sense.

In all the years i have played SR I don't think i ever even seen a feat of strength rolled, let alone rolled one. So a power that only adds weight lift is totally useless. You wanna lift something in SR? Go get a hydraulic jack and go lift it like ya mean it, if you want feats of strength go play Exalted or Super hero game. There we see some feats of strength rolled. How many times has anyone seen a feat of strength rolled in SR?

Damage isn't derived it has no other attributed added, and it sure as heck isn't listed derived stat section. So that's clearly wrong Kiir. Melee damage comes from strengths, it's what attribute primary value is. 

As to your point Reaver I don't buy it ether, the purpose of the power is boost the attribute, down side have put up with drain. Sure it won't effect Limit, that's fine, no wants to recalculate limit constantly and Initiative has power to does that already.  But Reaction adds to to dodge or driving pools, agi adds to hitting. Body adds to soak, but strength is just SOL for no reason? That logic makes no sense to me. I'll call BS on it every time.

We can find out what is intended just by submitting it. If comes back y'alls way then the power's name should be errata-ed to make it, boost ever attribute but strength. B/C it will have zero value in systematic terms, and I think that would just a terrible waste for everyone.
« Last Edit: <01-27-19/2310:35> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4290
« Reply #14 on: <01-27-19/2331:29> »
Attribute Boost (STR) doesn't make you stronger, it boosts your ability to perform feats of Strength.

For example, it doesn't increase the amount you can carry (derived stat based on attributes), but it does improve your ability to lift heavy objects (Lift/Carry Attribute Test)

By a similar metric, boosting Agility would improve your ability to jump (better dicepool), but would not alter the limits for maximum jumping distances, which are derived values based on Agility.

Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW. And as far as I recall, there haven't been any responses to this topic previously to indicate that the author's intent was to have it the other way either.

I'm putting in Kiir, if agility adds to attack pool, which it does, then agi adds to damage. Thus strength should add to damage as well. Otherwise the power makes no sense.

In all the years i have played SR I don't think i ever even seen a feat of strength rolled, let alone rolled one. So a power that only adds weight lift is totally useless. You wanna lift something in SR? Go get a hydraulic jack and go lift it like ya mean it, if you want feats of strength go play Exalted or Super hero game. There we see some feats of strength rolled. How many times has anyone seen a feat of strength rolled in SR?

I will grant that dice pools rarely incorporate STR. AGI is for attack pools.  REA is for dodge pools.  BOD is for soak pools.  STR? It's left out.  If there's a flaw with STR being undervalued, it's not in Attribute Boost it's in the entire combat system.

That being said, there are more dice pools that incorporate STR than just "feats of strength".

Climbing comes up fairly often, and would benefit from STR Boost.  Running and Swimming less so, but they also would benefit from a STR boost.  There's even a couple niche cases where STR is relevant to combat dice pools.. for example breaking out of a grapple is Unarmed Combat + STR instead of AGI.

Quote
Damage isn't derived it has no other attributed added, and it sure as heck isn't listed derived stat section. So that's clearly wrong Kiir. Melee damage comes from strengths, it's what attribute primary value is.

I'm not sure why you're presumably hung up on the idea that a derived value can only be derived if it involves a computation of 2 or more attributes.  Regardless, whether DV is or is not a derived value is ultimately moot.  I don't gain anything by proving to you that it is derived.

So instead of agreeing on what DV is, let's agree on what it is NOT?

Can we agree Damage Value is not a dice pool?
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.