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Adept Powers

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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #30 on: <01-30-19/0526:56> »
Kiir, read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth, you're not good at it. I said it can, I never said it did. Then I said that fact is the author clearly was ok with the power effective damage. Which you already agreed too so that discussion is over.
Not putting words in your mouth, you stated previously that you think the power does add to damage. Now you are only claiming that it can? Make up your mind. AND...

Indirect Kiir? Do we need to have the thac0 talk again? I mean really, you just don't seem to get how damage is caused in an modern RPG.
YES, indirect. Directly adding to damage is what Strength does (in the case of most melee weapons). The DV is equal to Strength plus some constant. Changing Strength directly affects the DV. Other examples of things that affect damage directly are: Critical Strike Adept Power, some ammunitions, some implants.

Indirectly affecting damage is what Agility does. Because changing the amount of dice that you roll for your attack invariably alters the average damage you deal, between net hits adding to the DV for most attacks and simply being able to hit, there is a lot of variation here. If we really want to go into the math, on average increasing Agility will increase the damage of an attack by about one third (because for every three dice, you can expect to get one extra hit). But like I said, this is inconsistent based on the situation.

So the way I would prefer to refer to this is that the increase to damage from the Attribute Boost [Agility] adept power is incidental to the intended effect of the power.

Incidental (adj): accompanying but not a major part of something.

The Power says it only affects dice pools, which is all I'm interpreting it as doing.

Now, the list of dice pools that can be affected for each attribute is different. Of course, all of the skill rolls that utilize an attribute are affected. And it just so happens that Agility is the attribute used to hit with attacks. And yes, having more dice on these rolls results in more damage (on average). Boosting Body reduces the damage taken, but it doesn't affect the number of boxes on your Condition Monitor. Boosting Reaction increases your chances of not being surprised, which can affect your Initiative, but Initiative is explicitly stated as being unaffected by the power.

I believe we are waiting still on where Damage Values are defined as a dice pool for the purposes of this power. Since the power "only affects your dice pools;" that seems fairly explicit.

Yes it's overly generic. Generic does not mean overly wordy, is this language barrier issue? One power represents every stat, guess what happens when you use one thing to represent a lot thing that while similar are not exactly alike? You miss the little details that distinguish from one another. Which is exactly what has happened here.  That's why it is overly generic, that's the definition of generic, an attempt for one size to try and fit all. Guess what? Unsurprisingly it almost never works. If we were in another edition we might well have had a separate version of the power for each stat, that would almost certainly address finer points that distinguish the stats. But we don't have that we have a overly generic power that present different stats with one short non-sophisticated and incomplete wording.

As far as I'm aware, this power has had only one write-up which covers all Physical Attributes since the game's inception. The specific rules have changed, but there has never been separate write-ups for each attribute.

Marcus

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« Reply #31 on: <01-30-19/0802:58> »
The power Boost Ability does add to damage, as BSA adds to damage.  You already admitted this like 5 post ago, stop wasting my time.  I believe strength can also add to damage (You don't agree, with that part and that's fine). But for sure power Boost Ability does add to damage, thus my point on RAI has clear validity.


Hitting comes first is therefore is direct, your damage rating has zero relevance in combat if you never hit. It's that simple, I think i have explained this to you three times now. Are you just ignore this concept for some reason? So hitting never indirect, it literally infinatly (0 to 1 lol) more important then whatever your damage rating is, its the definition of direct.
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Kiirnodel

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« Reply #32 on: <01-30-19/1439:23> »
BSA?

I'm talking about the Damage Value. When something increases the raw value of damage (like how Melee damage is equal to Str+) when something increasing Strength adds to damage, that is direct.

When the damage value is being increased as a result of another sequence of events (rolling well on the attack and managing to hit the target, that is indirect.

You may not like the terms I'm using, or refer to these things differently, but I've defined what I'm meaning several times and explicitly described the difference that I'm talking about.

Boosting Agility doesn't explicitly increase damage. You will deal more damage as the result of having an increased chance of hitting.

Increasing the chance to hit is not exactly the same as increasing the raw damage value.





Is the damage value of an attack a dice pool?
« Last Edit: <01-30-19/1446:51> by Kiirnodel »

RickDeckard

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« Reply #33 on: <01-30-19/1615:34> »
RickDeckard - I'm glad to hear that you guys have found a solution that works for your table.  The Ordeal solution to be able to shuffle a PP sounds great.

I am curious to hear your feedback on the extra STR directly affecting DV in-play if you would be kind enough to share.  My fear is that it is over-powered for the cost.

Consider: If you used Agility Boost at rating 4, with a Magic rating of 6 you are rolling 10 dice and have a good chance of coming up with 3 successes.  This would boost your Agility pools by 3, which for a combat skill (say Unarmed) should give you - on average - 1 extra hit.  Presuming you would hit without the boost, this then translates into +1 DV.

Since the DV of most STR-based weapons is straight STR (plus or minus a little bit), you would be able to achieve the same net +1 DV with Strength Boost at rating 1.  This is not only far cheaper, but means that if you used the same PP to buy Strength Boost at rating 4, you would reliably get a +3 boost to DV, far better than Agility Boost.

My personal solution is either a) that you take the hits generated by the Strength Boost (3 in this example) and then roll them as a separate pool, with any hits increasing the DV, or b) simply add the Strength Boost hits as extra dice to your Agility + Weapon Skill roll when using a weapon with STR as part of its damage code.  Either way you have the same chance to benefit from extra damage when using STR based weapons with Strength Boost as you do Agility Boost for the same PP cost.

Just my 0.02 Nuyen.  YMMV.

Yeah, I see your point. We haven't played since we decided on this, and I haven't actually used it in-game at all. We're a group of older gamers in our 40s and we've played together for 20-odd years, some of us longer. That means we're past the power gaming stage, so we tend to just throttle ourselves to whatever level we need and the GM will adjust accordingly. So I'm not gonna power up just to beat on a few gangers, but since I'm all fists based it's a nice reserve to have should we run into some hard drek. If I wanted to do max dmg I wouldn't have gone with Unarmed, but the most badass blade I could find, but Unarmed is more fun for role-playing, so in order for it to be viable long term it needs a boost. I also don't think it's a far stretch to say the increased STR results in increased DV for STR based weapons. I rather have to suspend disbelief in order to read the rules as written.

Marcus

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« Reply #34 on: <01-30-19/1918:44> »

BSA- Typoed that intended that to be BAA (Boosted Attribute Agility)

In melee, unarmed, bows, Strength may add to something to determine a damage rating, or as with guns which have damage rating modified by Ammo.

Boosting Agility doesn't explicitly increase damage. You will deal more damage as the result of having an increased chance of hitting.

This is actually not accurate Kiir, from two points.

First technical no attack explicitly causes damage Kiir as all attack can miss, If an attack is to cause damage at all. It will only occur b/c of a successful to Hit roll, and if BAA is use, the that roll is improved by BAA.  So if you want get really technical about it when using BAA it always makes damage more likely to occur, Second as additional net hit also add to damage it BAA will also increase the likelihood you will do still more damage. So you can actually say its doing double duty when it comes to damage.

You like to call damage rating, direct damage which is a highly inaccurate and misleading way to refer to it, for the reason i've explained clearly and you keep italicizing indirect lol. 

The point remains author wasn't concerned that BAA cause damage. Thus the point stands and thus is RAI.

How many times do you want ride this marry-go-round Kiir?  Wanna see if we can make it into Sonnet next time?
« Last Edit: <01-30-19/1922:03> by Marcus »
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Tecumseh

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« Reply #35 on: <01-30-19/2136:24> »
@Grizzly
Thank you for sharing your experiences. A few months ago I was involved in a debate here that largely paralleled Marcus' and Kiirnodel's spirited discussion. I asked if anyone found it unbalanced for Attribute Boost (STR) to apply to damage; nobody publicly said so at the time. I'm glad to have your opinion to consider.

I find that most players will have Magic 6 + Attribute Boost 1 to keep drain to a minimum. That means 7 dice which we'll take to mean 2 hits, so +2 to the attribute in question.

When comparing Attribute Boost (STR) with (AGI) one must take into account that AGI makes it more likely to hit / do damage in the first place, so that helps offset STR's potential advantage in pure damage bonus.

Adepts can boost their damage via Critical Strike and Death Dealer, but that combo maxes out at +2. This is starkly different than Fourth Edition, where adepts could get ranks in Critical Strike equal to their Magic attribute, which resulted in the "I punch through worlds" adept, especially since 4E's damage values and armor values were about half of their 5E equivalents. My experience is that Fifth Edition's constraints on Critical Strike effectively mean that humans and elves are almost never unarmed specialists due to their limited STR attributes (unless they use Nerve Strike, which is outside of the STR conversation).

One could argue that melee in general is suboptimal, given its range restrictions and comparatively limited damage compared to firearms. These are realistic disadvantages but I'm personally looking for a balanced gameplay experience rather than a pure simulation.

With that in mind, my personal experience is that between the action economy of Attribute Boost (specifically, the need for a Simple Action) and its drain considerations, having Attribute Boost (STR) add to the damage value of unarmed attacks and melee weapons is by no means unbalanced, and goes a long way toward making humans and elves into viable unarmed combatants. It puts them in a position where they can take STR 5 + Critical Strike 1 + Death Dealer 1 + Attribute Boost (STR) 2 = 9 DV, so now they're at least competitive with a heavy pistol. But, as you say, your miles may vary.

Kiirnodel

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« Reply #36 on: <01-31-19/0005:33> »
Damage. Is. Not. A. Dice. Pool.
The Power only affects Dice Pools.

I'm tired of making very clear and deliberate gestures of trying to define my point. I'm spelling out descriptions of the terminology I'm using, and trying to explain things in precise detail. All just to have it turned around and torn down by attacking something completely different.

I've explained what I mean by affecting the DV of an attack directly vs. indirectly. And it really doesn't matter. What are you adding the bonus from the power to? Is it a Dice Pool?

In my very first post, I said that it was a common houserule, it just isn't RAW. I've been debating this back and forth because someone seems to have this idea that it is spelled out clear as day that it adds to damage, when it really isn't.
« Last Edit: <01-31-19/0007:43> by Kiirnodel »

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #37 on: <01-31-19/0102:58> »
RickDeckard - I'm glad to hear that you guys have found a solution that works for your table.  The Ordeal solution to be able to shuffle a PP sounds great.

I am curious to hear your feedback on the extra STR directly affecting DV in-play if you would be kind enough to share.  My fear is that it is over-powered for the cost.

Consider: If you used Agility Boost at rating 4, with a Magic rating of 6 you are rolling 10 dice and have a good chance of coming up with 3 successes.  This would boost your Agility pools by 3, which for a combat skill (say Unarmed) should give you - on average - 1 extra hit.  Presuming you would hit without the boost, this then translates into +1 DV.

Since the DV of most STR-based weapons is straight STR (plus or minus a little bit), you would be able to achieve the same net +1 DV with Strength Boost at rating 1.  This is not only far cheaper, but means that if you used the same PP to buy Strength Boost at rating 4, you would reliably get a +3 boost to DV, far better than Agility Boost.

My personal solution is either a) that you take the hits generated by the Strength Boost (3 in this example) and then roll them as a separate pool, with any hits increasing the DV, or b) simply add the Strength Boost hits as extra dice to your Agility + Weapon Skill roll when using a weapon with STR as part of its damage code.  Either way you have the same chance to benefit from extra damage when using STR based weapons with Strength Boost as you do Agility Boost for the same PP cost.

Just my 0.02 Nuyen.  YMMV.

Yeah, I see your point. We haven't played since we decided on this, and I haven't actually used it in-game at all. We're a group of older gamers in our 40s and we've played together for 20-odd years, some of us longer. That means we're past the power gaming stage, so we tend to just throttle ourselves to whatever level we need and the GM will adjust accordingly. So I'm not gonna power up just to beat on a few gangers, but since I'm all fists based it's a nice reserve to have should we run into some hard drek. If I wanted to do max dmg I wouldn't have gone with Unarmed, but the most badass blade I could find, but Unarmed is more fun for role-playing, so in order for it to be viable long term it needs a boost. I also don't think it's a far stretch to say the increased STR results in increased DV for STR based weapons. I rather have to suspend disbelief in order to read the rules as written.

It wont break the game.  They should have just let you have multiple levels of critical strike for unarmed combat like in 4e. And honestly it should probably still be .25DV.  If you build heavy into it, orc/troll max strength, blah blah you can get a crazy base DV.  Thing is at some point it just doesn't matter much.  Take some bioware/cyberware have a 9+ strength with modified bones, 1 level of critical strike and your base DV is kill everything anyway.  So all more damage would do is pad it for niche enemies that might take 2 hits if you didn't.  What this will allow with attribute boost is to let a core concept of the game a human/elf non muscle bound monster punch and kill enemies like they have in every edition up to 5e. Since guns easily get into high damage with AP outside non min max builds you wont see a adept taking over thanks to a potential +4DV from attribute boost.

Mustakrakish

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« Reply #38 on: <01-31-19/0143:13> »
I will join the Adept questions and ask one myself.

If I initiated and got one power point but I want a power that cost 1.5 points, can I just keep this power for my next initiation, so I will 2 points and be able to buy the power?

Tecumseh

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« Reply #39 on: <01-31-19/0240:21> »
If I initiated and got one power point but I want a power that cost 1.5 points, can I just keep this power for my next initiation, so I will 2 points and be able to buy the power?

Yes, correct, although I might recommend spending the spare 0.5 power point after the first initiation so that you can use it to stay alive until the second initiation.

Grizzly

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« Reply #40 on: <01-31-19/0614:32> »
@Grizzly
Thank you for sharing your experiences. A few months ago I was involved in a debate here that largely paralleled Marcus' and Kiirnodel's spirited discussion. I asked if anyone found it unbalanced for Attribute Boost (STR) to apply to damage; nobody publicly said so at the time. I'm glad to have your opinion to consider.

I find that most players will have Magic 6 + Attribute Boost 1 to keep drain to a minimum. That means 7 dice which we'll take to mean 2 hits, so +2 to the attribute in question.

When comparing Attribute Boost (STR) with (AGI) one must take into account that AGI makes it more likely to hit / do damage in the first place, so that helps offset STR's potential advantage in pure damage bonus.

Adepts can boost their damage via Critical Strike and Death Dealer, but that combo maxes out at +2. This is starkly different than Fourth Edition, where adepts could get ranks in Critical Strike equal to their Magic attribute, which resulted in the "I punch through worlds" adept, especially since 4E's damage values and armor values were about half of their 5E equivalents. My experience is that Fifth Edition's constraints on Critical Strike effectively mean that humans and elves are almost never unarmed specialists due to their limited STR attributes (unless they use Nerve Strike, which is outside of the STR conversation).

One could argue that melee in general is suboptimal, given its range restrictions and comparatively limited damage compared to firearms. These are realistic disadvantages but I'm personally looking for a balanced gameplay experience rather than a pure simulation.

With that in mind, my personal experience is that between the action economy of Attribute Boost (specifically, the need for a Simple Action) and its drain considerations, having Attribute Boost (STR) add to the damage value of unarmed attacks and melee weapons is by no means unbalanced, and goes a long way toward making humans and elves into viable unarmed combatants. It puts them in a position where they can take STR 5 + Critical Strike 1 + Death Dealer 1 + Attribute Boost (STR) 2 = 9 DV, so now they're at least competitive with a heavy pistol. But, as you say, your miles may vary.

Thanks for the input.

One quick question though - I don't often create adepts with powers requiring rolls, so I've just gone back and re-read the power in depth and noticed that there isn't a limit specified for Attribute Boost.  Is this correct or is there errata on this?

Tecumseh

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« Reply #41 on: <01-31-19/1242:33> »
One quick question though - I don't often create adepts with powers requiring rolls, so I've just gone back and re-read the power in depth and noticed that there isn't a limit specified for Attribute Boost.  Is this correct or is there errata on this?

Do you mean capital-L Limits, like Astral limits, or do you mean a cap on how many ranks you can have?

There's no Limit of which I am aware, although there is an effective cap of +4 because any one attribute rating can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. (See page 94.)

As for how many ranks of the power, you're capped at a number of ranks equal to your Magic rating. See page 308: "The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less."

In practice, the power's drain calculation ("Drain equal to the number of levels you have in this power") usually means that players take a minimal number of ranks.

Marcus

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« Reply #42 on: <01-31-19/1257:20> »
You got stamina Kiir. I have never once said damage was a dice pool, I have always did it was a Rating. I never once claimed what I am suggesting is RAW. I do think what i'm suggesting is RAI. But that's an area open interpritation. BA raw says it adds to dice pools. I'm saying it can be changed so that bas adds to damage rating. I'm NOT claiming that's RAW. But I'm saying that I believe it's RAI.

Does that work for You?

I still think a sonnet would have been better...
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Grizzly

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« Reply #43 on: <01-31-19/1914:31> »
Do you mean capital-L Limits, like Astral limits, or do you mean a cap on how many ranks you can have?

There's no Limit of which I am aware, although there is an effective cap of +4 because any one attribute rating can only receive an augmentation bonus of up to +4. (See page 94.)

As for how many ranks of the power, you're capped at a number of ranks equal to your Magic rating. See page 308: "The maximum number of levels you can have of any one power is equal to your Magic Rating, or up to a limit listed by the power, whichever is less."

In practice, the power's drain calculation ("Drain equal to the number of levels you have in this power") usually means that players take a minimal number of ranks.

I meant Limits, such as when a Mage casts a spell the max number of hits is limited by the force of the spell (absent reagents, etc).  If I take any of the Attribute Boosts at Rank 1, my immediate thought based on the general structure of 5e is that I would be limited to only 1 hit being applied, regardless of how many I rolled.  A closer inspection of the notation suggests that this is not the case, that if you rolled three hits you keep three hits even if you only have 1 rank.

This seems a bit...unusual... at least to me.  So I was wondering if this was as intended or if there was an errata noting that it should be limited in some way.

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #44 on: <01-31-19/1920:50> »
It's probably intentional.. as you're already given an unbreakable limit in the form of the Augmented Maximum. 

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.