NEWS

Adept Powers

  • 48 Replies
  • 4077 Views

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #15 on: <01-28-19/0403:12> »
I'm putting in Kiir, if agility adds to attack pool, which it does, then agi adds to damage. Thus strength should add to damage as well. Otherwise the power makes no sense.
I don't follow. A smartgun system adds to your attack pool, that doesn't mean that it enhances damage. Yes, more dice will mean a higher chance of a successful hit, but that isn't equal to a direct bonus to the Damage Value. And no matter, just because one attribute has an effect in a certain way doesn't mean they all do. Yes, some powers might be less effective when used on a particular choice. Elemental Body [Water] might not be as effective as choosing another element.

In all the years i have played SR I don't think i ever even seen a feat of strength rolled, let alone rolled one. So a power that only adds weight lift is totally useless. You wanna lift something in SR? Go get a hydraulic jack and go lift it like ya mean it, if you want feats of strength go play Exalted or Super hero game. There we see some feats of strength rolled. How many times has anyone seen a feat of strength rolled in SR?
Just because it isn't used as often for things doesn't make my example any less valid. I was describing how the adept power affects two aspects of Strength that are extremely close together in different ways. Carrying Capacity vs the test for Lifting (which I have seen used in a game btw)

Damage isn't derived it has no other attributed added, and it sure as heck isn't listed derived stat section. So that's clearly wrong Kiir. Melee damage comes from strengths, it's what attribute primary value is. 

derive: (v) obtain something from (a specified source). Synonyms: obtain, get, take, gain, etc...
You derive the value for melee damage from the Strength attribute plus a specified bonus based on weapon or other bonuses. Technically, everything is derived in this game from some source or another. You might have been thinking I was suggesting that it was a "derived Attribute" which some people use to describe the special values that are calculated from other attributes, like Initiative and Limits.

In either case, the Attribute Boost power doesn't mention the term "derive" at all. In fact, Marcus, you were the one who started us off using that term. The power only says "This only affects your dice pools; your Physical limit and Initiative ratings don't change with Attribute Boost." which is the only description for the power's restrictions on use.

It says what it affects (dice pools), and gives a list of two things it does not affect (Initiative and Physical Limit). Those are both restrictive lists which don't contradict one-another, it isn't listing exceptions to what it alters. Initiative and Physical Limit aren't dice pools. It is calling attention to the fact that it doesn't alter derived values, which also includes Physical Damage boxes, movement speeds, or some drug durations, just to name a few.

As to your point Reaver I don't buy it ether, the purpose of the power is boost the attribute, down side have put up with drain. Sure it won't effect Limit, that's fine, no wants to recalculate limit constantly and Initiative has power to does that already.  But Reaction adds to to dodge or driving pools, agi adds to hitting. Body adds to soak, but strength is just SOL for no reason? That logic makes no sense to me. I'll call BS on it every time.

We can find out what is intended just by submitting it. If comes back y'alls way then the power's name should be errata-ed to make it, boost ever attribute but strength. B/C it will have zero value in systematic terms, and I think that would just a terrible waste for everyone.

This topic has been discussed many times before, and I expect it will probably come up again. This isn't new, and it wasn't only just realized. It's probably even been discussed by the Errata team already. Possibly even while the Errata team was still fresh. There hasn't been any push to change the wording.

Nevertheless,
Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #16 on: <01-28-19/0939:58> »
Kiir, how you can say you don't understand increasing hit increases damage, this blows my mind. Do you not understand the extra success become damage? Have you been playing the same game I have for the last 20 years? Are you actually saying this concept is beyond your understanding?

Elemental aura does what elemental aura does. Which is damage sure some element effects are situationally better or more often applicable then others. But the base power is still effective.

It's not a question of less often, I have never even seen it. Have you? If it never happens and there an obvious and morenlogicsl the power should have, then why are you holding on to something that never happens?

The Derived stats are defined in the system as you well know. I can link a page number if you want Kiir, but i dont see the point. Don't waste my time with useles Symantec arguments, when you already know what I'm referring to.

If the errata team has already considered then it will be fast conversation. It doesn't change my responsibility as member of the community to raise those issues I believe that will make the game and system better. My argument is logical, and I believe it is RAI.

Under y'all bazaar interpretation that power is useless and is so for no reason, other then we can't have a little imagnition. We have seen far more unclear wording addressed and errata over the course of 5th.


« Last Edit: <01-28-19/0941:31> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #17 on: <01-28-19/1300:29> »
Wow, I think I answered every single thing you commented on in the post that you were probably replying to... I'm not even going to bother quoting myself again, go back and reread my last post. I addressed nearly every question you posed. But here are my responses. I've added them in-line because I'm not going to take the time to make partitioned quotes if you don't bother to read my responses anyway.

Do you not understand the extra success become damage? Already answered

Have you been playing the same game I have for the last 20 years? Are you actually saying this concept is beyond your understanding? Not worth a response.

Elemental aura does what elemental aura does. Which is damage sure some element effects are situationally better or more often applicable then others. But the base power is still effective. Agreed, that's the point, some versions are situational better

It's not a question of less often, I have never even seen it. Have you? Yes, I said I have.
 If it never happens and there an obvious and morenlogicsl the power should have, then why are you holding on to something that never happens? This statement is missing some sort of verb or something, I'm guessing you meant something along the lines of "there is a more logical effect the power should have" or something? Still kind of a non-sequitur, since this whole discussion is about how that logic doesn't hold.

The Derived stats are defined in the system as you well know. I can link a page number if you want Kiir, but i dont see the point. Don't waste my time with useles Symantec arguments, when you already know what I'm referring to. I already pointed out the difference between a derived attribute and a derived value. But please, enlighten me with the page that defines this in system. I truly doubt there is something that specifically excludes damage values based on strength from the list of derived values.

If the errata team has already considered then it will be fast conversation. It doesn't change my responsibility as member of the community to raise those issues I believe that will make the game and system better. My argument is logical, and I believe it is RAI.

Under y'all bazaar interpretation that power is useless and is so for no reason, other then we can't have a little imagnition. We have seen far more unclear wording addressed and errata over the course of 5th.

You still haven't addressed the issue of Damage Value is not a dice pool. The wording isn't unclear at all.


Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #18 on: <01-28-19/1755:54> »
I don't follow. A smartgun system adds to your attack pool, that doesn't mean that it enhances damage. Yes, more dice will mean a higher chance of a successful hit, but that isn't equal to a direct bonus to the Damage Value.

No Kiir, you didn't answer you made a false claim. There is no damage until net positive success hit is achieved  that's 0 to 1 conversion an actual infinite step, and then additional success are also damage, that's all direct. Its not same as damage rating which for melee comes strength but as or more direct as an infinite damage would do zero good without hitting. 


And no matter, just because one attribute has an effect in a certain way doesn't mean they all do. Yes, some powers might be less effective when used on a particular choice. Elemental Body [Water] might not be as effective as choosing another element.

The base effect is still useful, unlike boost attribute strength which doesn't according to y'all theory.

Just because it isn't used as often for things doesn't make my example any less valid. I was describing how the adept power affects two aspects of Strength that are extremely close together in different ways. Carrying Capacity vs the test for Lifting (which I have seen used in a game btw)

Clearly you understanding flawed, Lift/carry is a derived attribute (page 152 core) and therefore not effect by boosted attribute strength, so if you have seen it wasn't there.

Nevertheless,
Damage is not a dicepool, it is a derived value based on Strength. I'm sure there is a common houserule that people use for letting Attribute Boost (Strength) increase melee damage, but the OP is correct, it isn't RAW.

I specified a page ago that damage is a rating.
« Last Edit: <01-28-19/1758:18> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4292
« Reply #19 on: <01-28-19/1808:38> »
The base effect is still useful, unlike boost attribute strength which doesn't according to y'all theory.

There's a difference between arguing that STR boost is useless if it doesn't modify DV (which is what you're arguing) and that STR Boost is not as mechanically advantageous as BOD, REA, or especially AGI as I'm, and I daresay Kiir is, arguing.

It's not attribute boost power's fault that so many combat-relevant dice pools are AGI based and so few are STR based.

And even if it's true that you've never ever seen a STR roll made, it's a fallacy to decree that they never occur.  Hell *I'VE* not only seen a bunch of them my characters have made a bunch of them. I made one every time I attempted a climbing test. Hell my SRM Decker even made a bunch of dice pool tests incorporating STR in the form of Running to squeeze some extra meters of movement out of a combat turn.

Page 151 also calls out STR + BOD as the dice pool used for tests to try to lift beyond your derived carrying/lifting capacity.  You're right in that STR Boost won't increase your derived value, but it does still serve a non-useless purpose in making a test to exceed that derived value.

Quote
I specified a page ago that damage is a rating.

If we all can agree that damage value is not a dice pool, that ought to end the discussion about whether Strength Boost modifies damage value.
« Last Edit: <01-28-19/1827:39> by Stainless Steel Devil Rat »
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #20 on: <01-28-19/1831:55> »
I asked in the FAQ, I'll live with whatever Jayden's answer is for SRM, and I'll play it as believe it was intended at my table. 
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #21 on: <01-28-19/2221:14> »
Marcus, you're caught up on this "derived values" restriction. That isn't in the Adept power. It only says it only affects dice pools.

The test to lift heavy objects is a Test (Body + Strength), which IS a dice pool. The carrying capacity is not.

The test to avoid being Surprised uses a dice pool (Reaction + Intuition). Initiative is not a dice pool.

The test to hit with weapon is a dice pool (Agility + Weapon Skill). Damage is not a dice pool.

Once again, the issue of derived values is not the issue.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #22 on: <01-28-19/2249:17> »
I'm well aware of what is the issue and what power says Kiir, it's your understanding that seems flawed to me. No kidding, you told me six posts ago that to hit, didn't effect direct damage. That's pretty epic failure in understanding game mechanics, as to hit has pretty well defined combat systems sense the days of thac0.  This issue is the result of getting overly generic in writing adept powers. But I've done my part to help fix it. Hopefully it will be, if not we have GM discretion for a reason.

 

« Last Edit: <01-28-19/2253:11> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

kyoto kid

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 925
  • Bushido Cowgirl
« Reply #23 on: <01-28-19/2340:42> »
...so by the same token, forcing a door open, holding a door shut against someone trying to open it, pulling someone up on a rope, grappelling/breaking from a grapple those would be considered tests/opposed tests that involve STR expressed as a pool.
« Last Edit: <01-29-19/0109:04> by kyoto kid »
Forsaken daughter is watching you

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #24 on: <01-29-19/0018:34> »
Marcus, you completely ignored the fact that I outright stated that the ability to hit affects your ability to deal damage. Yes, having a higher dice pool will mean that you will undoubtedly be able to deal more damage overall. What I was denying was your fallacious statement of [Agility improves damage, therefore Strength should improve damage]. Agility increases an attack dice pool, that is not the exact same thing as Strength being added for DV.

Either point us to where in the Attribute Boost power does it say that it adds to anything more than dice pools. Or show us where Damage Value is a dice pool. Otherwise I see no flaw in my logic.

Your argument seems to be based solely on the complaint that Attribute Boost [Strength] is under-powered compared to the other attributes.

EDIT: Yes, KK, those statements are true. Attribute Boost adds to any dice pools that utilize the chosen attribute. That's what the power says it does, and it says (explicitly) that is all it does.
« Last Edit: <01-29-19/0020:34> by Kiirnodel »

RickDeckard

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 126
  • It can't rain all the time.
« Reply #25 on: <01-29-19/0704:57> »
Thanks for all the comments, chummers.

We don't play hard core RAW at our table, nor do I play Missions (we may house game them, but not in an official capacity) and these are our first 5e characters so there's a bit of wiggle room.

We ended up house ruling that Boost STR does indeed increase DV, otherwise Unarmed Combat is a non-viable route for an Adept and it also just makes more sense.

We also ruled that during Initiation you can shuffle 1 PP around in addition to the new one you potentially if you go through an Ordeal. I think that all works fine.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #26 on: <01-29-19/0714:35> »
Marcus, you completely ignored the fact that I outright stated that the ability to hit affects your ability to deal damage. Yes, having a higher dice pool will mean that you will undoubtedly be able to deal more damage overall.
I'm glad you have come to accept reality.

What I was denying was your fallacious statement of [Agility improves damage, therefore Strength should improve damage]. Agility increases an attack dice pool, that is not the exact same thing as Strength being added for DV.
If one improves damage then the other can also improve damage. The fact is the author isn't adverse to the power Boost Attribute impacting damage. Your welcome to split hairs and We can agree to disagree for the rest.

Your argument seems to be based solely on the complaint that Attribute Boost [Strength] is under-powered compared to the other attributes.

My point remains the wording is the result getting overly generic with wording of boosted Attribute. In game terms you can't roll a simple strength test in any meaningful sense. Lifting/Carrying is a derived attribute as defined by attribute only pool page 152 of the core. This means the only time you can roll a straight strength test is when a GM directly calls for it. That's makes it not just under-powered, it make it useless. I'm not saying I understand the system the best or anything, but I know it well, and I have played and run for long time, that roll doesn't happen.  Pretending the power is fine when it will literally never comes into effect isn't under powered, it's useless and it needs to be fixed as I said 2 lines and in basically every post I have made in here. I'm not gonna change your mind, and that's fine. I don't need you to agree.   

What I'm saying isn't a radical departure Kiir, and it's not going radically shift the Tech vs. Magic balance in a meaningful way. In fact after what has just come down it should help maintain that balance following a couple very strong introductions to the tech side.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Grizzly

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 50
« Reply #27 on: <01-29-19/1124:29> »
RickDeckard - I'm glad to hear that you guys have found a solution that works for your table.  The Ordeal solution to be able to shuffle a PP sounds great.

I am curious to hear your feedback on the extra STR directly affecting DV in-play if you would be kind enough to share.  My fear is that it is over-powered for the cost.

Consider: If you used Agility Boost at rating 4, with a Magic rating of 6 you are rolling 10 dice and have a good chance of coming up with 3 successes.  This would boost your Agility pools by 3, which for a combat skill (say Unarmed) should give you - on average - 1 extra hit.  Presuming you would hit without the boost, this then translates into +1 DV.

Since the DV of most STR-based weapons is straight STR (plus or minus a little bit), you would be able to achieve the same net +1 DV with Strength Boost at rating 1.  This is not only far cheaper, but means that if you used the same PP to buy Strength Boost at rating 4, you would reliably get a +3 boost to DV, far better than Agility Boost.

My personal solution is either a) that you take the hits generated by the Strength Boost (3 in this example) and then roll them as a separate pool, with any hits increasing the DV, or b) simply add the Strength Boost hits as extra dice to your Agility + Weapon Skill roll when using a weapon with STR as part of its damage code.  Either way you have the same chance to benefit from extra damage when using STR based weapons with Strength Boost as you do Agility Boost for the same PP cost.

Just my 0.02 Nuyen.  YMMV.

Kiirnodel

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Ace Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 1471
« Reply #28 on: <01-29-19/1500:21> »
If one improves damage then the other can also improve damage. The fact is the author isn't adverse to the power Boost Attribute impacting damage. Your welcome to split hairs and We can agree to disagree for the rest.

This is a fallacy. Just because one attribute indirectly impacts damage (because having a higher attack dice pool allows you to deal higher damage) does not mean that the power impacts damage values directly or in all cases.

You claim the power has overly generic wording, but it doesn't. It has very precise wording: It only affects dice pools.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #29 on: <01-29-19/1804:02> »
This is a fallacy. Just because one attribute indirectly impacts damage (because having a higher attack dice pool allows you to deal higher damage) does not mean that the power impacts damage values directly or in all cases.
Kiir, read what I said, and stop trying to put words in my mouth, you're not good at it. I said it can, I never said it did. Then I said that fact is the author clearly was ok with the power effective damage. Which you already agreed too so that discussion is over.

Indirect Kiir? Do we need to have the thac0 talk again? I mean really, you just don't seem to get how damage is caused in an modern RPG.

Cause that ain't it.

You claim the power has overly generic wording, but it doesn't. It has very precise wording: It only affects dice pools.

Yes it's overly generic. Generic does not mean overly wordy, is this language barrier issue? One power represents every stat, guess what happens when you use one thing to represent a lot thing that while similar are not exactly alike? You miss the little details that distinguish from one another. Which is exactly what has happened here.  That's why it is overly generic, that's the definition of generic, an attempt for one size to try and fit all. Guess what? Unsurprisingly it almost never works. If we were in another edition we might well have had a separate version of the power for each stat, that would almost certainly address finer points that distinguish the stats. But we don't have that we have a overly generic power that present different stats with one short non-sophisticated and incomplete wording.

« Last Edit: <01-29-19/1806:18> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking