Shadowrun

Shadowrun General => Gear => Topic started by: DarkLloyd on <07-20-12/1553:59>

Title: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-20-12/1553:59>
Hi, I need some help making sure this thing is kosher.
     What I need are help from all of you to make sure it's components are "balanced". Is the price too high/low, the availability/legality or any other suggestions you might have. Since there are no creation rules for guns I will be basing this weapon on items in the books. I’ll note the one that I use at the top of the entry. Just the base stats will be used, not the accessories, and prices will be based off the base item, Unless the prices are just ridiculous then I will use my judgment. Here ya go.

     Yes. It's supposed to sound like a sales brochure.
I'm making up weapons to present to my GM. He decided that my stock portfolio has gained me a good sized interest in a small arms factory. So I'm preparing designs for them. I'll be posting the others soon and would like help there also. thank you all for your time.
     Also, none of this art is mine. I found it on the net and modified it when necessary, probably poorly, and is not meant for infringement.



The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
(Based on the GE Vindicator Minigun from Arsenal pg. 29.)

(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/DarkLloyd1/GI%20Arms/Tarrasque.jpg)

Standard Upgrades/Accessories: Smartlink, Gas Vents (3), Electronic firing (inherent), Heavy barrel, trigger removal / Hip brace, Ammo box, Gyro mount system.

Damage        AP      Mode          RC            Ammo       Avail               Cost
    6P              -1        FA*           12             250 (belt)     16F          10,000Y
(The fixed rate of fire is 15 rnds per complex action, not 10.)

The Tarrasque, named for the mythological creature known for its destructive capabilities on an absolute scale, lives up to its name.
     The mini-gun has always been a feared weapon, from the unique whir it emits when it “spools up” to the swaths of destruction left in its wake. The only thing holding these weapons back is the tremendous amount of recoil these systems inflict upon the user.
     In the Tarrasque GI has made a true weapons System. We completely removed most of the moving parts of the gun for a spark firing system. We refit the barrels with XL heavy versions and customized them with a patented Gas venting system. Then we integrated our Stable-Max gyro mount into the gun, along with a hip pad. Together, the Tarrasque System makes THE smoothest firing fully auto weapon on the market today.
     Lastly, we improved the "ready time" that former mini-guns had to deal with.  With the retooling of the internals to a fully electronic chassis and the DNI interaction of the on board Smartlink, the "Spool Up" time has been reduced to almost an instant on. We have also removed the, heavy, High density Battery core and replaced it with a Peak Discharge pack for easier recharge and longevity in the field.

     For a truly monstrous showing with this gun, our field testers recommend our new “Diamond Dart” AP flechette ammunition.


(Getting into the Gyro-mount Harness takes 5 minutes. Getting out is a complex action to release the quick release. The spin up time for this weapon is 1 free Action. The Peak discharge pack uses 1 charge per combat round of operation. (no fractions. One action or multiple actions in the round, as long as it is fired once it uses a power point. but only one point per round))

EDIT: The edits for the gun are in Red, or inside the red brackets.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: Tsuzua on <07-20-12/2343:33>
So it's a Vindicator with more built in modifications.  I recommend against it coming with a gyromount not due to any balance reasons, but because a gyromount system is something you wear.  It seems weird to have a gun soldered onto the harass rather than using the normal mounting.  I'll remove the built in mount for that reason.

Other than that, it's got built in Gas Vents 3, Smartlink, EF, Heavy Barrel, and comes with a hip brace.  The ammo box isn't needed.  It can just take a belt and it seems most belts are 250 rounds in the SR world. 

To replicate this firearm you'll just slap on Gas Vents 3 on the barrel, external smartlink on the top, mod on EF & Heavy Barrel, and finish with a hip brace.  That's about 7500Y worth of mods.  It's mainly because Heavy Barrel is so much as expensive weapons.  Since all of these features are actually useful, I'll keep the price the same.  Most of the time feature heavy firearms cost more than their more plain peers but not as much as the mods would.

There is one last question that is extremely important.  Does the Tarrasque has a spin up time like the Vindicator?  If it does, it's just a high-end Vindicator.  If it doesn't, it's way better than the Vindicator.  However since the spin up time is one of the fatal flaws of the Vindicator, I suspect it'll make the Tarrasque an useful heavy weapons platform with the normal drawbacks of using a heavy weapon.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-20-12/2359:41>
Thank you Tsuzua. To try and answer your questions:

1. The gyro mount was integrated to compensate for the massive recoil penalty this thing has, and as a marketing ploy. That, theoretically, gives it a leg up on the Vindicator that basically has to be vehicle mounted to be of any real use to anyone. But it is also one of the flaws of this gun. you can't just pull this thing out and wail on some gangers, you have to take the time to get into the harness. Which takes 5 minutes.....You have to Plan to use this.

2. The ammo box is there to hold the belted ammo and "self contain" it in the gun, so a back pack isn't needed to hold the belted ammo like it normally is.

3. And, No. I pictured the electronic firing parts to be able to negate that particular flaw. I would like input from others on this, but I was thinking that would eliminate the spool up. Annnd it looks like I forgot to add that part in to the description like I was going to. I wrote these over multiple breaks at work and was short on space on the page so I may have just over looked that part.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: JustADude on <07-21-12/0358:27>
Given the fluff, I really think you should re-stat the thing a little and upgrade it to a HMG, rather than a LMG.

Other than that... groovy.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: Charasanya on <07-21-12/0922:16>
It sure looks like machine guns don't really come any heavier then this, so I have to go with the Dude here.

But did you draw that picture yourself? Its amazing!!! :D
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: The Laughing One on <07-21-12/1427:46>
It looks like its ment to be man-portable - so I'll advise to stick with the light machine gun class, but add a built-in High-power chambering. Because a big name need big bullets. Perhaps add some "special chambering" that add some inherent recoil compensation, but make sure to up the price by far.

Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: redwolf on <07-21-12/1524:37>
you said it is a mini gun so by that you contradict your self no ofence but if it look like a mini gun fire like one and you call it one why call it lmg , after all the two  ar not the same?
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: ArkangelWinter on <07-21-12/1527:20>
Redwolf has a point. If it's an LMG, it's more like an MG42. What you have here is a bonified, Terminator-style minigun.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-21-12/2309:56>
Okay. Good feedback guys. I'll address you in order.

Dude: the point really was to have a Man portable gun, a HMG version of this I don't think would be portable by anyone other than a big troll or a drone. But i might make an HMG version now.  thanks.

Charasanya: Nope. Not my pic and I make no claims to it. These are all pics I stumble across while I'm working or sifting for art. I really should get better at trying to catch the artists names but usually as I'm finding these I don't have a lot of time.

The Laughing One: Right in one, on the portability. And as for the Hi power chambering, well that would have gone against the "marketing" of this thing by giving it an extra +2 recoil to try and manage. The whole point to this thing was to give customers the heavy firepower with dependable accuracy. Also I really like the idea of loading this with the AP flechettes, which I couldn't do with the HI power, and hitting people with 22P and them rolling their Impact armor against it......... ;D

redwolf & Arkangel: Since you guys have basically the same question here goes. It's an LMG because there is no "Mini-gun" category. The only mini-gun we have in the books is the GE Vindicator Mini-gun, which this is based on, and it's listed in the LMG section........
Also the mini-gun in terminator2 was the same gun used by Jessie Ventura in Predator, who btw was the first person ever to stand and fire one of those at least for the movies, and that mini-gun is the GE Vindicator Mini-gun in SR.

Thanks you guys have given me some things to think about, now how do you guys feel about the Price and the availability? Do those need changing? There was nothing to really give any indications on how availability "stacks" when making these. so most of this was just guess work on all these items i put up.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: KarmaInferno on <07-21-12/2354:49>
Redwolf, ArkangelWinter, I'd point out that the Vindicator Mini-Gun is, in fact, also an LMG.

LMG refers to the class of bullets that the weapon fires, not the firing mechanism. You can have minigun LMGs, and non-minigun LMGs.

I personally consider Shadowrun LMGs to fire the same ammo as Assault Rifles, MMGs to fire Battle Rifle calibers, and HMGs to be in the .50 caliber range.


-k
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: TheNarrator on <07-22-12/0029:30>
I personally consider Shadowrun LMGs to fire the same ammo as Assault Rifles, MMGs to fire Battle Rifle calibers, and HMGs to be in the .50 caliber range.

That is how they're generally done in the real world, so it's likely still the case in the 2070s.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: Mason on <07-22-12/0142:26>
Could you post this Diamond Dart ammunition, please? I want to see what makes it so special.

Also, I like your descriptions, ot really sounds like the old Street Sam Catalog returned.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: TheNarrator on <07-22-12/0225:46>
Could you post this Diamond Dart ammunition, please? I want to see what makes it so special.

He said it was "AP flechette", which I assume would mean that it has the same stats as the Armor-Piercing Flechette ammo from the War book. It's probably just a brand name for that company's line of AP(f) ammo, like how "Black Talon" was the name of Winchester's line of hollow points.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: redwolf on <07-22-12/0226:33>
sorry but lmg is not cal it is kg&g IRL and a gun that need a giro to shoot is not light i know it is Q&M but that the way the i lernd .lmg you carry by hand and strap, mmg you need at last two to carry and shoot, hmg is moved by car and so on . no offence ment
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: All4BigGuns on <07-22-12/0227:09>
Could you post this Diamond Dart ammunition, please? I want to see what makes it so special.

He said it was "AP flechette", which I assume would mean that it has the same stats as the Armor-Piercing Flechette ammo from the War book. It's probably just a brand name for that company's line of AP(f) ammo, like how "Black Talon" was the name of Winchester's line of hollow points.

Dikoted AP Flechette using the new 2050 book?  ::)
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: Mason on <07-22-12/0232:50>
sorry but lmg is not cal it is kg&g IRL and a gun that need a giro to shoot is not light i know it is Q&M but that the way the i lernd .lmg you carry by hand and strap, mmg you need at last two to carry and shoot, hmg is moved by car and so on . no offence ment

I'm not totally sure I read that correctly, but I think you are inferring that the GE Vindicator (and by extension this gun) requires a gyro mount to use? It does not, by the rules. It merely stabilizes the gun and makes you have more recoil compensation (6 more RC, IIRC).
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: All4BigGuns on <07-22-12/0234:13>
sorry but lmg is not cal it is kg&g IRL and a gun that need a giro to shoot is not light i know it is Q&M but that the way the i lernd .lmg you carry by hand and strap, mmg you need at last two to carry and shoot, hmg is moved by car and so on . no offence ment

I'm not totally sure I read that correctly, but I think you are inferring that the GE Vindicator (and by extension this gun) requires a gyro mount to use? It does not, by the rules. It merely stabilizes the gun and makes you have more recoil compensation (6 more RC, IIRC).

Well, this one would technically require a gyro mount, but that's because I imagine it's pretty much welded on.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: redwolf on <07-22-12/0250:16>
sorry but lmg is not cal it is kg&g IRL and a gun that need a giro to shoot is not light i know it is Q&M but that the way the i lernd .lmg you carry by hand and strap, mmg you need at last two to carry and shoot, hmg is moved by car and so on . no offence ment

I'm not totally sure I read that correctly, but I think you are inferring that the GE Vindicator (and by extension this gun) requires a gyro mount to use? It does not, by the rules. It merely stabilizes the gun and makes you have more recoil compensation (6 more RC, IIRC).
like i said  it is a Q&M so lets not go there
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: KarmaInferno on <07-22-12/0317:51>
sorry but lmg is not cal it is kg&g IRL and a gun that need a giro to shoot is not light i know it is Q&M but that the way the i lernd .lmg you carry by hand and strap, mmg you need at last two to carry and shoot, hmg is moved by car and so on . no offence ment

Er. I think I can make out what you're trying to say. I have to say your typing is difficult to read.

Real life definitions of "LMG", "MMG", and "HMG" are actually not clearly established. Different countries and different manufacturers have different takes on what classification any given machinegun is. Some don't even use the terms "light", "medium", or "heavy", preferring other nomenclature like "general purpose".

However, Shadowrun DOES have specific ideas on how it classifies machineguns. And that is largely by how much damage each one does, not by their weight or ease of carrying.

There is a little fuzziness between guns, but most of the LMGs do 6P damage, the same as assault rifles, most MMGs do 6P to 7P damage, about what battle rifles do, and HMGs do 7P to 9P damage, about the same as sniper rifles to the heavy "anti-material" class rifles.

Shadowrun does not use calibers, mostly, but if we are classifying machineguns by damage code, the equivalent real-life weapon "light" seems to be about equivalent to 5.56x45 or similar, "medium" is probably 7.62×51, and "heavy" is probably 12.7×99 (.50 cal) up to 20mm calibers.

The non-minigun real life equivalent of the Shadowrun LMG is the M246 SAW. MMGs are likely the M-60 or similar. HMG is the old .50 caliber Ma Deuce.

Shadowrun calls the Vindicator a Light Machine Gun. It is modeled after the real-life XM-214 Six-Pak "microgun" developed by General Electric. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XM214_Microgun) The XM-214 fires a 5.56x45mm round.

Which, hey, is more or less the same size ammo fired by the M16 assault rifle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle).

If we were to stat out the M134 Minigun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun), it would probably be classified as a MMG under Shadowrun standards.


-k
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: TheNarrator on <07-22-12/0325:45>
Shadowrun generally classifies weapons by the ammunition used, so the Vindicator minigun using LMG ammo (5.56x45mm NATO or equivalent) gets grouped with the LMGs even though such a weapon would be impractical to use as an LMG (i.e., as a support weapon that an individual soldier can use on the move) due to the sheer recoil, weight, quantity of ammo consumed and power requirements of Gatling-style weapons.

Then again, the superhuman strength and mass available to augmented or metahuman shooters and use of man-portable gyromounts in the Shadowrun setting apparently makes the use of a minigun by an individual soldier possible. Still, the Vindicator is probably not classified as an LMG by people in the setting, just by the rules of the game system, due to the kind of round it fires.

...Did they really neglect to say anywhere in the rules that barrel accessories for miniguns have to be paid for six times over because they have six barrels? I'd have thought that would be important to note.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: JustADude on <07-22-12/0402:20>
If we were to stat out the M134 Minigun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minigun), it would probably be classified as a MMG under Shadowrun standards.

The German version of Arsenal added the Ruhrmetall R506 "Balmung", which is a MMG using Gatling rules.

DV = 6P, AP = -2, Mode = FA* (duh), RC = 1, Ammo = 40(box) or belt, Avail = 18F, Price = 11,000¥
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-22-12/0951:50>
Yes to all of you on the "Diamond Dart" thing. It's just armor piercing Flechette from War with this company's brand name on it. Much like how each of  the vehicles have a blurb on all the different brand name for the same item.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: Tsuzua on <07-22-12/1233:39>
Thank you Tsuzua. To try and answer your questions:

1. The gyro mount was integrated to compensate for the massive recoil penalty this thing has, and as a marketing ploy. That, theoretically, gives it a leg up on the Vindicator that basically has to be vehicle mounted to be of any real use to anyone. But it is also one of the flaws of this gun. you can't just pull this thing out and wail on some gangers, you have to take the time to get into the harness. Which takes 5 minutes.....You have to Plan to use this.

2. The ammo box is there to hold the belted ammo and "self contain" it in the gun, so a back pack isn't needed to hold the belted ammo like it normally is.

3. And, No. I pictured the electronic firing parts to be able to negate that particular flaw. I would like input from others on this, but I was thinking that would eliminate the spool up. Annnd it looks like I forgot to add that part in to the description like I was going to. I wrote these over multiple breaks at work and was short on space on the page so I may have just over looked that part.
Yeah when it comes to the gyromount and ammo bin, that's just a preference thing.  I would point out that when you're carrying a minigun, you're planning on using it (or that the threat of using it is enough) regardless of the mount or not.

As for the no-spin up, that makes it a much more useful weapon than the Vindicator.  However, I think it's warranted.  The reason is that the Vindicator isn't as useful due to having to wait for it to spin up*.  Here it's just make sure it's ready and then fire. 

Since it's a LMG, you can put it on a normal weapon mount.  I can see wanting to put this on a security drone after you cut off the gyromount harass.  Since drones don't have to worry about recoil normally, this is a good weapon to put on a Doberman.  No spin up means that a rigger can just go straight to firing once given the order to fire.

*- Actually you might be able to walk around with a spinning Vindicator.  Ask your GM.
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: Reaver on <07-22-12/1715:44>
Thank you Tsuzua. To try and answer your questions:

1. The gyro mount was integrated to compensate for the massive recoil penalty this thing has, and as a marketing ploy. That, theoretically, gives it a leg up on the Vindicator that basically has to be vehicle mounted to be of any real use to anyone. But it is also one of the flaws of this gun. you can't just pull this thing out and wail on some gangers, you have to take the time to get into the harness. Which takes 5 minutes.....You have to Plan to use this.

2. The ammo box is there to hold the belted ammo and "self contain" it in the gun, so a back pack isn't needed to hold the belted ammo like it normally is.

3. And, No. I pictured the electronic firing parts to be able to negate that particular flaw. I would like input from others on this, but I was thinking that would eliminate the spool up. Annnd it looks like I forgot to add that part in to the description like I was going to. I wrote these over multiple breaks at work and was short on space on the page so I may have just over looked that part.
Yeah when it comes to the gyromount and ammo bin, that's just a preference thing.  I would point out that when you're carrying a minigun, you're planning on using it (or that the threat of using it is enough) regardless of the mount or not.

As for the no-spin up, that makes it a much more useful weapon than the Vindicator.  However, I think it's warranted.  The reason is that the Vindicator isn't as useful due to having to wait for it to spin up*.  Here it's just make sure it's ready and then fire. 

Since it's a LMG, you can put it on a normal weapon mount.  I can see wanting to put this on a security drone after you cut off the gyromount harass.  Since drones don't have to worry about recoil normally, this is a good weapon to put on a Doberman.  No spin up means that a rigger can just go straight to firing once given the order to fire.

*- Actually you might be able to walk around with a spinning Vindicator.  Ask your GM.

I have allowed players to pre spin the vindicator (mentions a battery life of 15 minutes I think)... But they have a hard time finding targets when they do :(. Couldn't be in any way related to that special 'distinctive' sound, could it? :)
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: JustADude on <07-23-12/0225:13>
I have allowed players to pre spin the vindicator (mentions a battery life of 15 minutes I think)... But they have a hard time finding targets when they do :(. Couldn't be in any way related to that special 'distinctive' sound, could it? :)

CORP-SEC: *hiding in closet*

HEAVY WEAPONS TROLL: *whirrrrrrrrrrrrrr* "Come out, come out wherever you are!"

CS: *whimper* "Ohgodohgodpleasedon'tlethimfindme..."

HWT: "Hmph... nobody ever wants to come out to play..." *leave room*

CS: *sigh in relief* *stay in closet*

EDIT:Maybe Is it just me, or did anyone else just instinctively 'hear' that in the TF2 Heavy's voice?
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: CanRay on <07-23-12/1338:03>
WHO TOUCHED SASHA???
Title: Re: The Tarrasque (Light machine Gun)
Post by: DarkLloyd on <07-24-12/0956:46>
Edits are up for this one.

Thank you all for helping out with this.
Also for those of you that thought this would need Hi Power chambering, if that is house ruled as a "Modifier" to ammo instead of an ammo type, as is being talked about in these forums, then Yes I would have added it in. But if you do you need to make this gun not able to accept any other mods at all.