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Tracer rounds - best ever or greatest ever?

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Doc Chaos

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« Reply #30 on: <11-27-10/1042:23> »
thalandar: You make good points, but in real tactical situations all of that is covered with AROs in your TacNet. No need anymore to give away your exact psoition by firing tracers.
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Kontact

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« Reply #31 on: <12-10-10/0519:48> »
Dead Monky and Gun Nut hit it on the head about tracers giving up your position.

From a house rule standpoint maybe.

From an "its in the book" rules standpoint, finding someone by hearing unsilenced gunfire is just as easy as finding someone by watching tracers.  Both of them are a threshold 1 obvious test.  Hell, a tacnet finds gunfire automatically.  Better than the boomerang mic, that's for sure.  Since there aren't many ways to get well-compensated full auto fire while having your weapon silenced (those being a vehicle, tripod, gyro-harness, extensive cyberware or huge adept initiation levels) I'd rather my gunfire to be both loud and bright if it's going to be more effective, or just use the extra full-auto dice to compensate for the loss of Recoil compensation so that I can switch off the gas-vent and use the suppressor.  If the only person to see your bullets is the one you're tagging with FA, then that's way better than firing an unsuppressed weapon inside a building.

It certainly doesn't take a specialist to show off the Tracer round's benefit for a regular support role combatant.
Say you've got a second-line combatant.  Hacker, sneaker, whatever.  Instead of a base DP in the teens, we're looking at a DP of around 7.  Suddenly the 4 dice on full auto from the combined laser sight and tracers is a lot more significant.  meanwhile the use of full-auto allows for that support character to either dish out huge damage to slow moving targets or saturate an agile opponent that they would normally have no chance of hitting.  -9 to dodge means, 1) frag your cover 2) frag your reaction 3) frag your skill 4) roll soak, sucker.
« Last Edit: <12-10-10/0626:51> by Kontact »

Dreadlord

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« Reply #32 on: <01-08-11/1325:43> »
Hm, ignoring for the moment that I believe tracers and lasers are mutually exclusive...

Isn't it true that using lasers akimbo is specifically illegal?

Kontact

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« Reply #33 on: <01-13-11/0939:19> »
Only smartlinks-and-lasers and smartlinks-and-tracers are mutually exclusive, so combining a laser sight and tracer rounds in a fully automatic weapon yields +2 dice for short bursts, +3 for long bursts and +4 dice in total for FA bursts.

Firing akimbo negates modifiers from laser sights and smartlinks, but not tracers.  For two gun shooting, tracers are the only thing of the three which can raise your DP.  However, as Max pointed out, you can't do akimbo full bursts, so you'd need to stick with long bursts.  HV will let you do two long bursts in a pass though, so with enough cyber or magical RC, dual supermachs stacked with tracers and stick-n-shock will power through crowds.  Meanwhile, +2 dice each to two guns is still the equivalent of +4 dice.
« Last Edit: <01-13-11/0941:43> by Kontact »

Billy_Club

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« Reply #34 on: <01-14-11/0601:10> »
Though Tracers don't actually eliminate range penalties so it will almost always be about breaking even (+1DP per gun at medium range with long bursts) when you'd be able to use them since they don't work at short range.  That is unless you are spending your simple action to lock onto a target with vision magnification (assuming cyberware or goggles for akimbo firing) for the first pass and another every time you or the target moves.  Seems like more trouble than it is worth except for a theme, in which case it can sometimes be useful.

Kontact

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« Reply #35 on: <01-15-11/0630:05> »
The Hawkeye quality is basically a requirement for any pistolero type..
5m short range on a machine pistol, etc. etc.

Niche, sure, but it's a common niche.

Billy_Club

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« Reply #36 on: <01-15-11/0843:56> »
Actually the Hawk Eye quality would have a bad synergy with tracers, as tracers do not provide their bonus at Short range.  Hawk Eye would extend your short range bubble, making the distance that you can't use tracers extend further.  Ideally, you'd want to have your targets in Medium range at all times to get the best bang for your buck.  SMG's work really well for this as they have a short start to their Medium range window and a long end to it.

Kontact

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« Reply #37 on: <01-15-11/1301:31> »
Hawkeye only shifts the modifiers so that penalties are one step less.  It doesn't change the essential nature of the weapon you're using.
Medium range doesn't literally become short range, and the tracers aren't dependent on the modifiers to exist.

Sure it's nonsense that 5m is enough for tracers to be effective in a pistol-sized weapon, but an AR needs 50m before you can benefit from it.
But, that's the rules.  Wacky as they are.

Bradd

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« Reply #38 on: <01-15-11/1928:17> »
The Hawk Eye quality does say that one range becomes another, though:

Quote from: p. 98, RC
their unaugmented Weapon Range Modifiers [are] reduced by 1 step (for instance, Long Range becomes Medium Range).

However, it's silly that this quality would make tracers less effective, so it's probably best to use the more favorable range category for the situation.

Billy_Club

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« Reply #39 on: <01-15-11/2141:27> »
Yes, Medium range literally does become Short range with this quality.  It doesn't change any of the physical qualities of the weapon (i.e. it doesn't get a new maximum range which would require a physical change to the weapon) but it does make you more accurate within its maximum range.  I don't find it silly that tracers don't work well with the quality, especially since there are other options.  It's a counterbalance that I think works well to prevent any rules fudging for extra damage output. Tracers are still situationally good in certain circumstances with certain weapons, just only really good if you are dual wielding or firing full bursts alot.

Kontact

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« Reply #40 on: <01-16-11/0431:41> »
The Hawk Eye quality does not say that one range becomes another, though:

Quote from: p. 98, RC
their unaugmented Weapon Range Modifiers [are] reduced by 1 step (for instance, Long Range becomes Medium Range).

Fixed for accuracy.

Modifiers are dice pool bonuses or penalties.
Range is a constant facet.
« Last Edit: <01-16-11/0434:04> by Kontact »

Bradd

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« Reply #41 on: <01-16-11/0751:20> »
Ah, I see! Subtle point, that. :)

Morg

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« Reply #42 on: <01-27-11/1315:37> »
My PCs are using tracers in an Ingram Super Moch 100 with a top mounted laser sight & Barrel Reduction. At the moment the mystic adept it is using them with Enhanced Aim on a sustaining Foci.

The Tracers seam to be working so far

one question, anyone have the rules for Dazzling with Lasers of different strengths and the level of protection provided by a flare compensator


Rockopolis

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« Reply #43 on: <02-11-11/1337:54> »
Figures my first post would be about guns.  XP
Doesn't stacking tracers and stick n shock (to save NuYen) kinda defeat the purpose of the latter?
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Kontact

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« Reply #44 on: <02-12-11/0601:17> »
Figures my first post would be about guns.  XP
Doesn't stacking tracers and stick n shock (to save NuYen) kinda defeat the purpose of the latter?

The book only says that tracer rounds are the only ammo that can be loaded with other ammo, it never says how this effects the other ammo.
However, any burst you fire is going to have 2x as many [Stick-n-Shock] as tracers, so the damage effects of the [Stick-n-Shock], not the tracers would logically take precedent.  I suppose you could roll to determine if the guy is tagged by the tracer or the SnS if you wanted to...