[Achsin]

I like the idea. Probably not something that I would introduce to the game so that the players could get their hands on it, but I could definitely see the weapon as part of a plot point.

You could use it as a weapon against a dual natured being. That annoying shapeshifter who's been stirring up trouble, well he can't cover his moving car with wards, but we can see through his tinted windows with this new radar system and since the astral bullet that will be launched will go through the car/windows without breaking them nor will they leave a mark on his body, no one will know what hit him and it can't be traced back to us.

Even against materialized spirit, s&s gives you 6s at -half armor. This in a sniper rifle gives you 7+P with ap -2 or better and ignores the immunity to natural weapons, making it vastly superior with both more damage and better armor penetration.

"The idea was simple, we took an astral rock, really just a pebble that only exists as an astral form, and shaped it into this bullet that we put into this sabot made from some dual natured unobtanium found in the magically active volcano at mount phlebotium..."

[Falconer]

Achsin...  problems... spells and spirits are the only purely astral living things with astral forms which can interact with other astral forms.  If dealing with spells... processed sensors like radar/sonar can't be used to establish the mystical link that targets spells.

There are no 'astral rocks' at all in the setting.   It would be a holy grail of manatech to find such an item.  There are are auras (which can be read but otherwise not  interacted with), there are astral shadows (the clutter of the real world blocking visibility on the astral), and their are astral forms of dual-natured/astral entites which can interact with each other but not the shadows or auras.


The shapeshifter is travelling in an unwarded vehicle and is vulnerable to astral attacks... so a mage could just pop his head through the drivers or rear window out of reach of him and nuke him with a spell.   Be creative and mind control him into causing a horrific accident... which if it doesn't kill him a little magical 'help' can be applied.  Or even better... for far less than the cost to invent this magical bullet made of unobtanium... summon and bind some truly horrific spirits of say force 8 or 9 or so.   The spirits proceed to gang bang the mostly helpless shapeshifter.   They kill him with astral combat without leaving a mark on his body and pop back to the metaplanes they came from.

You're making some kind of McGuffin device which serves no purpose except to break the rules.

[Achsin]

It would be the holy grail of manatech. That's the point. Where did it come from? How did it get to our astral plane? Does it have something to do with the horrors? Why would someone use it for this?

All of those methods you described would leave astral signatures that would lead back to the person who did it, where this astral pebble wouldn't, in fact, even if it was found the person examining it probably wouldn't have the slightest clue what it was since as you stated, it "can't" exist. There are plenty of magical things that exist but aren't explained, and they are still discovering new things.

While I agree that it might not suit your table or campaign, the idea that such a thing exists could be the basis for a fun campaign for other groups.

[Falconer]

Except you're forgetting something... astral combat doesn't leave astral signatures.

Your only hope is to track the link from the spirits to their summoner/controller.

And spell's which do leave astral signatures can be scrubbed away in a matter of seconds... in 10 seconds the mage can scrub 9 points for force away.  (3 astral passes per combat turn).

[Mirikon]

You know the funny thing about the holy grail? No one ever finds it. They think they find it, sure, only to have it snatched away at the last minute, if they even get that close. The holy grail is (and was always meant to be) an unattainable ideal. By which standards your comparison is correct. Especially in the 'unattainable' part. What you're describing is as world-breaking as introducing the Death Star to a D&D game. In other words, you should be hit about the head with a phone book until the horrible ideas stop coming out.

Seriously, though, this is something that is utterly unworkable as magic is understood now, or even at the height of the Fourth World, when they knew a helluvalot more about magic than they do in the Sixth. You want to know the best argument against what you're suggesting? Saeder-Krupp, NeoNET, and Mitsuhama don't have it. If the three corps with GREAT DRAGONS heavily involved can't make it work, then it isn't possible. And really, there's no reason for it. Anyone capable of targeting astral forms will already have means of hitting them. Anyone incapable of targeting astral forms has nothing to fear from them until they manifest, in which case they have more than a few easily available options to deal with them.

[Lucek]

OK Mirikon. You've made it clear you don't like the idea. But you must admit Achsin has it right. If this was introduced then it would be worth multitrillion nuyen. The kinda job that a character would retire off of. Kinda job that could make a good basis for a end game plot.

Oh and Deathstar in D&D. Either you need to refresh your knowledge on 2E or you just didn't like the funkier settings.

[Achsin]

Da Vinci couldn't make a working flying machine, therefore it can't exist. The 4th age didn't invent the matrix therefore it's impossible. Just because they didn't discover it back then doesn't preclude it being discovered now. I'd presume that the Greats didn't forget everything they knew back then and have a starting point to build from. On the other hand, maybe this astral object/entity's introduction to our realm is something that will bring the coming of the Horrors nearer and the Greats know it, in which case wouldn't they actively misdirect research into the subject?

Also, I never suggested introducing it into the game in such a manner that the players would be able to recreate it or even utilize it (more than the plot demands anyways) and therefore unbalance the game. I made a comparison for possible advantages of such technology over current tech vs manifested spirits to explain it's introduction to use as ammunition, but as stated it is effective against dual natured beings (and probably should ignore their armor too and count as magical for ignoring ItNW) and a non magician with astral sight would be able to utilize it vs spirits. Things get invented all the time that are inferior to other options or don't really seem to have a useful purpose, but may springboard into more useful inventions.

As for world breaking, Crash 2.0 and the new wireless matrix effectively broke the previous world, as well as numerous other occrances in the timeline.

10 seconds is more than enough time for any astral support to either confront you or assense your astral signature.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Wow, you two.

Look, here's the thing: you two, Achsin and Lucek, are focussing on 'what's in the game world' and 'just because it isn't in there doesn't mean it can't be done'.  Mirikon, myself, and most of the rest of us are looking at it less on the 'hasn't been done yet' and more on the 'goes against game philosophy and previous absolute statements about how the universe works'.  You can't smack a proton and an antiproton together and not expect fireworks; you can't stand naked in the middle of the heart of a star without incredible technology or immense powers; you can't create a ranged astral weapon outside of a spell.  Not 'it hasn't been done yet'; it goes against game philosophy and the absolute laws of how magic works.

Yes, if Achsin wants to introduce it into his game, then sure, it's a multi-trillion-dollar 'eureka' event.  Is it ever going to make it into mainline SR?  Not on your life, because it goes against the theme of the game.

Achsin, Crash 2.0 and the WMI sure as hell didn't break the previous world.  C2.0 may have done a number on it, but 'break'?  Err ... no.  Redirected, shifted, yes.  Break?  I believe you have Shadowrun confused with something else.

[Redmercury]

If you want something cool get a duck with rocket launchers, jets, and lasers built into it. Now that's cool.

[CanRay]

If you want something cool get a duck with rocket launchers, jets, and lasers built into it. Now that's cool.

I only have one thing to say about that.

[Lucek]

Yeah The Wyrm Ouroboros we get it. We are in fact looking at it on 2 completely different sides not disagreeing about any points just interpretation of them. Basically any discussion on the internet.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Actually, no, Lucek - I disagree with every point you've got, but I'm being nice.  However, I am certain that inisde the game world, there are labs all over the world looking for your magic bullet.  They'll never find it, but sure, they're looking for it.

[Lucek]

As I said internet argument.