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Building a Mage - lessons learned

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dposluns

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« on: <05-03-16/1348:44> »
I wanted to catalog some of the thoughts I had now that my Street Shaman character has experienced a few months of play. Basically things I wish I'd known at chargen.

1. Shell out for the relevant supplements first.

My magician was built purely from core and it sucks to discover after the fact "oh, I could've attuned some of my heavier-drain spells to fetishes" or that there is a quality that increases the damage of direct combat spells by 2 that will now cost me twice as much karma if I want it. I also wasted a ton of money on a power focus that my GM is allowing me to let my Talismonger (and her assistants) craft an upgrade for me, all of which I'm paying for using the hourly labor rates from Run Faster instead of the shelf price.

ESSENTIAL SUPPLEMENTS:
Street Grimoire for fetishes, more spells, more traditions if you care or want to Intuition for drain instead of Logic or Charisma, additional Mentor Spirits, long-term initiation planning (hello Extended Masking), discounts on initiation (probably save these until later when it you get more out of it)
Shadow Spells for more spells (including the awesome Manascape I intend to get ASAP)
Run Faster if you want Witness My Hate, as well as other qualities and equipment that may be interesting
Hard Targets if you want Spellblades

2. Single-point skills are cheap to obtain after chargen.

It takes 12 karma and 6 weeks to take a skill from 5 to 6, but only 2 karma and a day to go from 0 to 1. So it's much more efficient to spend your "free" points on maxing out a small number of skills you care about than taking a bunch of one-points that you can easily get after chargen. Sometimes it makes sense to the character, but (especially with my Levitate spell in play) I've not rolled my Gymnastics skill once.

2. a. Likewise, low attributes are far cheaper to raise than medium or high attributes.

It makes sense to max out the stats you care about as much as you can at chargen. (I'm playing a buffing magician anyway so several of my attributes are frequently boosted by an additional 4 points.)

3. Buy strong armor.

Especially if your Body is low. Mages are squishy, and they will try to geek you. (Corollary: learn the rules for full defense and block/parry/dodge. Make sure one of the latter is a viable option for you. The best way to survive a hit is to avoid it.)

4. Remember you're on a team.

It's easy and tempting to make a Magician who can do everything: depending on tradition they can be a face or a decker, they're fearsome in combat, with the right spells from Grimoire they're even a mechanic. Especially if you're the only dedicated mage on your team then your job should be dealing with magical stuff; don't dilute your formula by trying to be a jack of all trades.

Things I think I did right:

1. Hero Lab is expensive but a great investment. The rules are dense and Hero Lab automates most of them for you. I tried a couple of the free tools but none of them compare and the licensed built-in documentation is great. The time I've saved is incalculable and I do not regret a single dollar spent on that software.

2. Take the time to learn about and understand foci and reagents. A couple good sustaining foci make a world of difference if you're doing anything other than combat, and reagents are surprisingly cheap and cost-effective when used wisely. (In particular, a force-1 focus can sustain a much stronger spell if cast with reagents.)

3. Choose a concept that works for me and invest in that. I wanted to play with a high-force-low-drain combat touch-spell, so I've invested in Unarmed Combat (with a specialization I worked out with my GM for discharging spells), Punch, Increase Agility and Increase Reflexes spells, as well was options to be stealthy (Sneak ability and Conceal power from summoned creatures). It's been fun and working well for me, but taken a hefty chunk of my chargen resources. (If I'd known about Manablade I might have constructed around that instead.)

4. Decide where you want to use spirits for help. Spirits can obviate the need for a lot of skills and spells. I was able to drop Improved Invisibility in favor of Concealment, and I let spirits do my Searching for me. Their Movement ability is also super powerful. Spirts of Man can sustain your spells for you, and have optional psychokineses and influence abilities that do what those spells do. Spirits are of course more effort to wield than simple spells so it makes sense to pick and choose (e.g. I still have the Influence spell for my own use).

5. If you're taking combat spells but aren't specializing in combat, choose the minimum spells that cover your use cases. In addition to my Punch spell for (typically instant) melee knockouts, I have one direct spell for dealing with heavily armored and as an alternative to Astral Combat (which I didn't invest any skill points in), and one indirect AOE spell for laying on the heavy artillery.

6. Plan for a way to combat drain. I'm a buff-heavy shaman so I increase my Charisma for four extra drain dice. Other options include Centering metamagic with a focus once you've initiated. If you're into trading essence for cyberware I imagine there are options there as well.

I'd love to hear other experience, advice or tidbits relating to this!

Dan.

Hobbes

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« Reply #1 on: <05-03-16/1451:52> »
With Regards to #1, GMs really should allow a respec of some kind when a new supplement becomes available, IMO. 

2,3,4 apply to all characters.  2&2a are really the crux of a lot of min/max behavior you see at char gen.

Mage specific Advice.  Mentor Spirits are nice, you probably want one.  Aspected mages are mechanically terrible, be a full Mage and take Incompetent in whatever skill group you don't actually want.  Or house rule something.  Alchemy is worth a minor investment.  Skip Banishing.  Take a Mana Spell.  Focused Concentration of 4, a Sustaining Health Focus 4, or be a Mystic Adept for your initiative boosts.  If you're getting a Boost spell for your Drain stat you may think about leaving it at 4 or 5 so you don't have to sustain a force 6.  Focus Addiction isn't a big deal.   8)

And for crying out loud take Counterspell. 

dposluns

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« Reply #2 on: <05-03-16/1525:00> »
I'd probably be super interested in Alchemy if I didn't have to spend 5 karma to relearn each spell :P

I've been thinking of getting a skill point or two in Banishing, although maybe not until I have a power focus to amp it up. There really aren't very effective ways of dealing with purely astral enemies (dematerialized spirits and astrally-projecting mages); direct combat spells are particularly wimpy without Witness My Hate, as is Astral Combat in general. (I don't do binding either so I've got at the most one spirit who can help me, although they've been banished before.)

With regards to the the boost spell, I actually did exactly what you said, maxing out my Willpower and leaving my Charisma at 5 so I could afford to sustain the increase spell on it with Focused Concentration 5.

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #3 on: <05-04-16/0903:43> »
Banishing isn't worth it. Reckless casting WMH Stunbolts is. Or just using reagents to get a high limit. But yes that is better when you have a power focus as well.

Or hell unless it's force 10+ your street Sam should be able to do some real damage with an AR and APDS.
Playability > verisimilitude.

bangbangtequila

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« Reply #4 on: <05-04-16/1017:00> »
This is an awesome thread. The point on lowering stats to keep them going on Focused Concentration is brilliant.

dposluns

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« Reply #5 on: <05-04-16/1034:05> »
Banishing isn't worth it. Reckless casting WMH Stunbolts is. Or just using reagents to get a high limit. But yes that is better when you have a power focus as well.

Well, you can multi-cast Stunbolts in a single action by splitting your dicepool, but reckless casting is two simple actions and you're only allowed one combat action per initiative pass.

WMH would definitely help but against a force-6 spirit with willpower 6 and a condition monitor with 11 boxes, it's gonna still take quite a while. On average the 6 willpower will resist the 2 DV from WMH, leaving all hits from the spellcasting test unresisted, so if you're rolling less than 18 dice (which I sure am) it's gonna usually take a minimum of three complete (not split) castings to fill that monitor.

ETA: whereas on the other hand, you can potentially remove all of the spirit's remaining services in a single turn, and if you time it correctly use conjuring before they depart to get them fighting on your side! That's got some appeal to it for me. Of course it's a tricky move to pull off and you need the dice pool for it.
« Last Edit: <05-04-16/1038:38> by dposluns »

Whiskeyjack

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« Reply #6 on: <05-04-16/1100:39> »
WMH would definitely help but against a force-6 spirit with willpower 6 and a condition monitor with 11 boxes, it's gonna still take quite a while. On average the 6 willpower will resist the 2 DV from WMH, leaving all hits from the spellcasting test unresisted, so if you're rolling less than 18 dice (which I sure am) it's gonna usually take a minimum of three complete (not split) castings to fill that monitor.
This assumes you're the only person doing anything to it, which is sort of a bad assumption. Again, reagents help a lot here. But so does a power focus - that's probably the biggest key.

ETA: whereas on the other hand, you can potentially remove all of the spirit's remaining services in a single turn, and if you time it correctly use conjuring before they depart to get them fighting on your side! That's got some appeal to it for me. Of course it's a tricky move to pull off and you need the dice pool for it.
I'm very against Banishing due to its super niche utility. I can't abide by the design of a whole skill doing marginally better than a single spell does. That's just my opinion though.

Anecdotally, my group put down a Force ~10 spirit in a Background Count area of -10. It wasn't easy, and was largely due to a sam with a sniper rifle, but it's possible. F6 spirits can be nasty but the notion that you have to go against them by yourself is also silly. If nothing else electrical damage still affects their ini, they're still susceptible to debuffs, and APDS/SnS still does gross things to them even with INTW.
Playability > verisimilitude.

ikarinokami

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« Reply #7 on: <05-04-16/1133:53> »
no way, banishing is way more effective against spirits than stunbolts. you just need to invest in it, and in my opinion given how strong spirits are its well worth the investment.

dposluns

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« Reply #8 on: <05-04-16/1220:05> »
This assumes you're the only person doing anything to it, which is sort of a bad assumption. Again, reagents help a lot here. But so does a power focus - that's probably the biggest key.

Reagents don't help with direct combat spells. You can set the limit as high as you want, but you need the hits to do damage. (You can use Edge, but of course with Edge you can unbalance just about anything.)

And yeah, I'm assuming I'm the only person doing anything because if I'm throwing a crappy Stunbolt at them then I take it that we're in pure-Astral combat (i.e. the spirit isn't materialized). If it's materialized, they can deal with a Force-10 Punch or a massive Ball Lightning that deals way more indirect damage that they just resist with their Body. It's more the case when I'm astrally projecting or need to do stuff while on the astral they could interfere with or want to protect my team from a spirit before it gets a chance to materialize.

Dan.

Hobbes

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« Reply #9 on: <05-04-16/1227:58> »
no way, banishing is way more effective against spirits than stunbolts. you just need to invest in it, and in my opinion given how strong spirits are its well worth the investment.

Banishing is, in some cases, more effective than Stunbolts.  The difference in effectiveness is not worth the investment, IMO.  Skill points are a rare and precious thing.  Taking 6 points of Banishing means you're short somewhere else.  Binding, Assensing, Alchemy, Perception....?  The comparison isn't StunBolt vs Banishing, it's Banishing vs whatever skill(s) you took the skill points from.  Mages never have enough skill points and are a giant black hole of Karma once play starts.  It's rare a mage will be throwing 40 or 50 karma at skill development instead of Initiation or Foci bonding. 

The opportunity cost of Banishing is why the skill gets a deservedly bad rap.   

Xexanoth

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« Reply #10 on: <05-04-16/1233:10> »
The other problem with banishing is the drain, you can't really control the drain unless you know exactly what you're faceing(level of spirit and summoners magic rating),
trying to banish a strong spirit summoned by a good mage will hit you hard.
With stunbolts you can control the drain.
If your run i going to be longer, that is important.

bangbangtequila

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« Reply #11 on: <05-04-16/1234:55> »
I made a thread earlier entitled: "Banishing: Is it really that bad?"
The overwhelming results of that exploration were pretty consistent. The big issue with banishing is the hits x2 that convert directly to drain, which could easily turn into the spirit throwing 12 dice opposing you, and nailing you with 8 drain on average if it is bound. It is super unpredictable, and if there are 4 services you will be almost guaranteed to require 2-3 turns, and taking damage every time which forces caution when casting further spells.

Your WMH stunbolt cast at F6 gives you a standard 5 drain to resist (usually very easily managed- my mage is going to pull 16 drain resistance dice fairly easily) dealing your hits on 15 or so dice directly to it, allowing your team mates to hammer the hell out of it with automatic fire. Better you hit them with lightning bolt at force 8 or 9 and just melt it in one bolt.

dposluns

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« Reply #12 on: <05-04-16/1252:54> »
I made a thread earlier entitled: "Banishing: Is it really that bad?"
The overwhelming results of that exploration were pretty consistent. The big issue with banishing is the hits x2 that convert directly to drain, which could easily turn into the spirit throwing 12 dice opposing you, and nailing you with 8 drain on average if it is bound. It is super unpredictable, and if there are 4 services you will be almost guaranteed to require 2-3 turns, and taking damage every time which forces caution when casting further spells.

That's a good point I hadn't really thought of; the drain against bound spirits is going to be super deadly.

Beta

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« Reply #13 on: <05-04-16/1726:54> »

That's a good point I hadn't really thought of; the drain against bound spirits is going to be super deadly.

Yep -- and you never know if a spirit is bound or not.  Barring house rules, you probably shouldn't banish spirits that you don't know much about, which makes it too situational to be a very good return on your invested skill points.


dposluns

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« Reply #14 on: <05-04-16/1736:39> »

That's a good point I hadn't really thought of; the drain against bound spirits is going to be super deadly.

Yep -- and you never know if a spirit is bound or not.  Barring house rules, you probably shouldn't banish spirits that you don't know much about, which makes it too situational to be a very good return on your invested skill points.

If you catch it unawares and have the time to do so you could assense it... binding status isn't explicitly mentioned on the assensing table but I think 4+ hits ("general cause of any astral signature", Core p.313) would be good enough for most GMs. That said, any time you're dealing with multiple spirits odds are they are bound (or no more than one of them isn't bound), especially if they're sitting around guarding something.