[Wazlethwack]

Hello.  First time poster.  I've got some questions about the Great Ghost Dance.  I apologize if this has been covered before.  I did do several forum searches.

I've read most of the source books up to third edition and some of the novels.

I know (at least I think I do) that the Ghost Dance was a massive blood magic ritual.  Do we know where Daniel Howling Coyote learned the ritual?  From reading the Attlan book I got the feeling that *maybe* one of the immortal elves might have taught it to him.

If someone taught it to him, what price did he pay to get the information?

Thanks in advance.

[Namikaze]

Great question.  I would assume he learned it from a spirit, perhaps a mentor spirit.  But that is, after all, just an assumption.  I'd love to hear some of the other theories and facts (if there are any).

[Wazlethwack]

Interesting idea. I hadn't thought of that.  Would it need to be a blood spirit to teach a blood magic ritual?

[Namikaze]

Given the current rule system, yes.  But there aren't any mechanics for what was written almost 25 years ago.    Barring someone with a tremendous amount of more knowledge of the world than I (Wyrm, I call to you!) I think that the ritual probably started without the blood magic, and then devolved as things went on.  Probably the first shaman to die of exhaustion would have created a surge of power, and then that would have triggered more and more of a desire to perform blood magic to power the ritual.  Or, the whole blood magic thing was purely by accident.  That's my take on it, I don't see the event as some sort of horrid ritual sacrifice.

[Mirikon]

Under the current understanding of spirits, it would have to have been a blood spirit, yes. Of course, there are entities far older than the current understanding of magic and spirits out there. Yes, the Ghost Dance was a massive blood magic ritual. However, I do not think it was a blood spirit which taught Daniel Howling Coyote the Dance. My guess is that it was Thais, the half-horror 'son' of Aina Dupree, one of the Immortal Elves. Especially since it mentions in Worlds Without End that he tried to do something similar before the rise of mana had gotten high enough for the Dance to work. While we're on the subject, from an Earthdawn frame of mind there are two types of blood magic: Life and Death magic. The two types are differentiated primarily on the purpose of the spell/ritual, and the willingness of the participants. What the Azzies practice is primarily Death magic. Rituals like the Ghost Dance would be Life magic, with the participants willingly contributing their lives for the greater good. To put it in more mundane terms, both the German army in WWII and the Japanese Self-Defense Force today would be considered a 'military'. A diehard pacifist would decry the existence of either one. But on a practical level, there is a big difference between the two, especially when talking about size, scale, and the types of operations they're equipped and trained to do. Yes, this example is taking things to a bit of an extreme, but I only do it to illustrate the point.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

Mirikon is correct, so far as I'm aware.  Thais (who's back in the game) had reason to teach Daniel Coleman the techniques, then probably just stepped back to see if it was gonna work now.  And lo and behold ...

[Wazlethwack]

Ah, yes.  I remember Thais from Worlds Without End.  What would his motivation be to teach them the Great Ghost Dance?  And what did Coleman have to do to get the info?

From what I know, you are quite correct about the Ghost Dance not being death magic.  The participants were volunteers and knew the risks.  It wasn't an "evil" act.

I wonder if the NAN still have the Ghost Dance technique or if Howling Coyote is the only one who knows....  I recall in one of the sourcebooks that the reason the UCAS and the Native American Nations are at peace is because of a form of mutually assured destruction.  The NAN have the Ghost Dance they could use the against the UCAS.  And the UCAS has nuclear weapons they could use against the NAN. 

But could the Ghost Dance threat be a paper tiger?  And aren't nuclear weapons supposed to be less reliable now?

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

His motivation?  A good question.  And what would Howling Coyote have to do?  Another good question - but I'm willing to bet not too much out of the way of what he would normally do.  Thais seems to me to be a monkeywrencher - and Coleman had Coyote sitting on his shoulder.  Trickster Coyote may be, but the results are always worth quite a lot more than the trouble he puts others through - he's not evil.  Or selfish, like Raven.

As for the NAN still having it - yes, absolutely they do.  To succeed, Howling Coyote couldn't have restricted the rite to himself; they never would have been able to execute the plan on the scale they did.  As for the nukes, nobody really knew that they were turning erratic; after all, Israel had just recently turned Libya into a parking lot with them, North Korea's could have just been poorly built, and the Russians could have (or did) shot down the SAIM-launched ones with their super-seekrit ICBM-killing spy satellites.  But the NAN is no longer a unified force, and the nations that make it up aren't willing to go through the bloodbath necessary to wipe the UCAS, CAS, and Quebec completely off the map.

[Wazlethwack]

Other than Worlds Without End, is there any other material on Thais?  Worlds without End is the only book I recall seeing him in.  And then rather briefly.

You're probably right in that the Sovereign Tribal Council does still have the Ghost Dance ritual.  But wasn't Coleman rather pissed off at the NAN when he went incommunicado?  He might have not given them the ritual.  It's possible the NAN's magical deterrent is a bunch of hot air. 

But as I said, that's probably unlikely.  But it would be interesting to see how the relationship between the NAN and it's neighbors would shift if it turned out the NAN didn't have the Dance (and it became publicly known).  As far as I know there's no source material even hinting that the Ghost Dance is lost.

I bet if most of the Amerindian population was threatened they'd unify rather quickly.

I miss hearing more about the NAN, actually.  I still have to catch up on all the 4th and 5th edition books but from what I've gathered the NAN has largely taken a back seat to other events.  The NAN is what got me interested in Shadowrun in the first place.

[Crimsondude]

Thais is mentioned in Loose Alliances and The Clutch of Dragons.

He also taught the Ghost Dance to the Lakota in 1890, but the ambient magic level wasn't sufficient then to work.

[Emperors Grace]

Assuming that's a reference to Wounded Knee?

[Crimsondude]

Yes

[Wazlethwack]

Thanks for that reference.  I don't think I have that book but I"ll check.

What was Thais motivation for teaching the Ghost Dance?  Sympathy with an oppressed minority?  Wanting to shake things up for the sake of doing so?  Boredom?  I'd think if you are more or less immortal boredom would be a serious issue given enough time.

[The Wyrm Ouroboros]

"That's a good question."

I would think he's trying to see whether the magic level has returned to sufficient scale - he may not be able to do anything, but a large number of people might.

[Wazlethwack]

Interesting.  In other words, a large magical ritual might be able to accomplish more with a low man level than a single magician?