[AJBuwalda]

How necessary are additional initiative passes? I get that its a good pro to character, but is it crucial?

[Chaemera]

It's seeming that way in my game at least.

It especially sucks if only one or two people have multiple passes because then you have a lot of very bored other players waiting for the gun adept to wrap up her two additional actions (usually, shooting someone or a group of someones four additional times).

[etherial]

How necessary are additional initiative passes? I get that its a good pro to character, but is it crucial?

Generally speaking, +1 Initiative Pass makes your character twice as deadly. 3-5 can start getting gratuitous, but even if you're playing a Mage, it can be tough to go it with only one IP.

[AJBuwalda]

I'll keep that in mind. I was looking at a mage, since I'm constantly making characters to get a feel for everything and was curious

[Walks Through Walls]

A lot of it depends on the game, and what you are going up against. If you have mainly small fights with a couple other people the fight might well be over in one pass, but if it is a large group then multiple passes make life easier.

[Critias]

It's not about being more deadly, it's about staying alive.  Remember that actually getting to use your swanky Dodge or Gymnastics skill when someone is blasting at you costs you an action.  Unless your Reaction alone is better than the Agility + (Firearm Skill) of most bad guys, and unless you know for sure you'll kill every bad guy in sight and no one will still be around to attack you after your action is over, you really, really, want extra Initiative Passes.

Yes, it's awesome to think about a guy that shoots three times faster than the opposition, but remember that everyone gets their first shots and then guys with multiple IPs get theirs.  So if you're a super badass Shadowrunner fighting against four security guards, for instance, the odds are good you'll kill one or two in the very first action, sure...but then what?  Then they're getting to roll attribute + skill against your attribute (+ nothing, since you already used your action and won't be using a proper dodge), to try and shoot you full of holes.  That's normally a contest you'll lose.  It's especially a test you'll lose if you're comparing your Reaction attribute to them (while trying to stubbornly avoid boosterware).

See the issue?  It's simple math.  Extra IPs -- or enough Edge to fake it -- are absolute necessities to anyone who plans on making himself a target in a fight.  Even if you're only duking it out with low wage rent-a-cops that don't have extra IPs themselves, it's the nature of a Shadowrunner's job to be outnumbered, so you'll have lots of incoming fire.  You want at least a second IP, so you can declare a proper dodge and get to use all those points you spent on combat skills.

[FastJack]

I can see the problems AJ's talking about with players feeling those with more IP's may be hogging the spotlight. The key for the GM is to highlight the other players more in the situations where they are good to keep conflict low. If you're spending a lot of time focusing on mulitple IP combat heroes, then make sure later on the mage or hacker gets equal time* with the spotlight.

*I'm not saying to keep a stopwatch, but instead give them an equal chance to shine just as brightly.

[AJBuwalda]

A super slick, jacked up speedfreak with guns is obviously appealing. Yet I like playing the local smuck who does things his way. I can see why the IP boost would really help, but don't forget the power of Joe Smoe in RP. He has to overcome obstacles and that usually ends in good RP. But I guess there is also a difference between having a simple (relative term) Wired Reflexes I and a cybered up Sammie.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Having lots of IP is lethal in a long engagement with many opponents. Each extra IP is basically a whole round worth of fun compared to a normal. In a one on one scrap, who goes first matters a lot more. One good IP worth of automatic (or burst) fire or high powered spells will have many opponents reaching for their DocWagon card.

[Critias]

A super slick, jacked up speedfreak with guns is obviously appealing. Yet I like playing the local smuck who does things his way.

Which is fine, but the group will be in trouble if they don't have any sort of jacked up speedfreak with guns, because "street samurai" (or at least an adept who acts like one) is frankly one of the assumed things a shadowrunner team brings to the table.  

When one remembers just how likely your average shadowrunner team is going to be outnumbered, it's a basic equity of total IP that allows the individually superior skill+attribute pools of shadowrunners to win the fight.  Lone Star developed Jazz for a reason, and that reason was the ubiquitous nature of jacked up speedfreaks with guns.  It's just sort of an assumption made by the game developers (and that includes the ones that write the missions and gauge the lethality of published encounters) that most teams are gonna have a couple dedicated hardcases with some extra actions.

Now, I'm as big a fan of the noir everyman as you're gonna find.  I dig the gumshoe in the fedora and trenchcoat as much as the next guy, the guy who gets by on contacts and gumption (and some Edge ) instead of high tech 'ware and all that sort of thing...but be prepared to be seriously outgunned in almost any encounter, if your whole team is made up of guys with a single IP.

I'm not saying not to make a character you want to play -- I'm saying to do so with eyes wide open, that it'll mean you'll be seriously disadvantaged in a fight, unless your GM really tones things down for you.

[AJBuwalda]

That's cool... And since cyberware is common I guess having a Wired Reflexes upgrade or something in that order would still make you Joe Smoe.

[JohnQ]

Since a recent reintroduction to playing SR, I was quickly schooled the first night on how important more than a single IP is. As mentioned, the scenario's make an assumption I think that one or more runners will have multiple passes. Therefore they drop a bunch of adversaries into missions that could break down into a battle (or that are intentionally made to be a battle). Thankfully my GM has given us some room to tweak our characters from out of the gate. A few games later I noted also that even with more than a single IP, it is also important to at least be somewhere toward the front of the Combat Turn if possible. For my Mage the Combat Reflexes and Combat Sense have proven to be a boon.

[Dakka]

Mages have the easiest access to 4 IPs of anyone for next to nothing.  Simply start with Improved Reflexes as a spell, and the ability to summon force 3 Spirit of Man (force 6 is better, but 3 works in a pinch).  The alternate power they have access to at force 3 lets them cast one of your spells, so for a single service the spirit casts Improved Reflexes on you until his summoning clock expires and he goes home.  +3 init and +3 IPs can be yours for the low low cost of 0Y and Summoning 4.

Depending on the team size/combat ability multiple initiative passes actually become redundant a bit.  Combats have a tendancy of being over in the second IP of the first round if your team knows what they are doing.  At least that's been the experience in the game we are running, although it could be the result of a very large team (6 members, 5 of which are combat specialists).

[AJBuwalda]

How does that whole Increase Reflexes work with Force and all? You need to get the threshold wit hits, but what is the Force for?

[Mäx]

How does that whole Increase Reflexes work with Force and all? You need to get the threshold wit hits, but what is the Force for?

Force=max hits you can get.