[ScytheKnight]

FFS adzling give it a rest, your not achieving anything by carrying on like this.

[Reaver]

FFS adzling give it a rest, your not achieving anything by carrying on like this.

He can't.

The Soapbox he climbed on to is so high, coming down off of it would require an 80foot manlift.

[falar]

Also, text is probably the cheapest part of the development project, as far as I've been able to tell from tracking a few RPG products. There's a lot more than text. There's:

• Art - this is generally one of the largest parts of a particular book's development budget
• Layout - this is a huge area for the development budget. A good layout person is worth their weight in gold.
• Editing - generally, this is harder to budget exactly because editors are usually on staff.
• Technical Editing - a solid chunk of money gets spent here on development budget.
• Management/Running - usually on staff, but also a significant chunk of development and production
• Printer costs - this is probably the biggest solid chunk of production budget
• Fulfillment costs - this is all about liasing with different distributors. More upfront in a company, but less for an established name (unless they're changing distributors).

Text is generally far from the hardest thing to get or the most expensive thing to get. What you're actually saying is more akin to saying you want no more art in Shadowrun and instead all are plain, black covers with no pictures.

Think about that.

Nobody wants that.

[All4BigGuns]

Also, text is probably the cheapest part of the development project, as far as I've been able to tell from tracking a few RPG products. There's a lot more than text. There's:

• Art - this is generally one of the largest parts of a particular book's development budget
• Layout - this is a huge area for the development budget. A good layout person is worth their weight in gold.
• Editing - generally, this is harder to budget exactly because editors are usually on staff.
• Technical Editing - a solid chunk of money gets spent here on development budget.
• Management/Running - usually on staff, but also a significant chunk of development and production
• Printer costs - this is probably the biggest solid chunk of production budget
• Fulfillment costs - this is all about liasing with different distributors. More upfront in a company, but less for an established name (unless they're changing distributors).

Text is generally far from the hardest thing to get or the most expensive thing to get. What you're actually saying is more akin to saying you want no more art in Shadowrun and instead all are plain, black covers with no pictures.

Think about that.

Nobody wants that.

All definitely true, but after reading your post, I find myself wondering how much money would be saved if instead of full color artwork (it's nice and all, but not really necessary) they went back to most art being the black and white art found in the SR3 core book. I'm especially fond of the one that I believe is an elven street sam with a tattoo of a rose.

[tytalan]

Adzling I've been following this thread just like you and I am more than sure it is not a fluff vs crunch issue!  It is a direction issue many times the freelancers are writing with little or no direction from the Line Developer good example is Data Trails which is describe as the Decker Book and has nothing for Deckers in it in fact it guts Decks and make Comm's a good choice for Decker's instead of Deck's.  The LD should have a team of 2-5 people that whole job is directing the writers when it comes to new rule and rule changes they should be there to help the writers with any questions as to what is needed to fix the rule set.  Developing a books should be something like this.

Virtual Soul "Decker/Rigger/Technomancer core Book"
This is what we the LD Team want from the writer
20Pg's this is our Matrix Fix "Please keep this in mind for rules"
50Pg's Deckers
   A) Deck design / Use rule "Should always trump Comm's and other devices in the Matrix"
   B) Program Design rules
   C) Advance Agents
   D) Positive / Negative Qualities
   F) Cyber/Bio/Nano
50 Rigger
   A) RCC Deck design
   B)  Rigger software 
   C)  Building Rigging
   D)  Cyber/Bio/Nano
125 Technomancers
   A) Matrix Mancers "Attach some Ideal and suggestions"
   B)  Rigger Mancers "Attach Some Ideals and Suggestions"
325 to 350 pages total the Rest fluff
Please give us a rough outline on the rules sections as early a possible so our rules team can work with you on fitting these rules in to the current rule set.

Once edited and ready the book should be released in PDF format for open play test with  a from thread to report any problem and possible fixes this thread should be reviewed every month with the PDF being updated with corrections than after 2-4 months a final PDF should be made and sent to the printer for hard copy     
 

[adzling]

Fair nuff, that's a cogent and well reasoned post.

Adzling I've been following this thread just like you and I am more than sure it is not a fluff vs crunch issue!  It is a direction issue many times the freelancers are writing with little or no direction from the Line Developer good example is Data Trails which is describe as the Decker Book and has nothing for Deckers in it in fact it guts Decks and make Comm's a good choice for Decker's instead of Deck's.  The LD should have a team of 2-5 people that whole job is directing the writers when it comes to new rule and rule changes they should be there to help the writers with any questions as to what is needed to fix the rule set.  Developing a books should be something like this.

Virtual Soul "Decker/Rigger/Technomancer core Book"
This is what we the LD Team want from the writer
20Pg's this is our Matrix Fix "Please keep this in mind for rules"
50Pg's Deckers
   A) Deck design / Use rule "Should always trump Comm's and other devices in the Matrix"
   B) Program Design rules
   C) Advance Agents
   D) Positive / Negative Qualities
   F) Cyber/Bio/Nano
50 Rigger
   A) RCC Deck design
   B)  Rigger software 
   C)  Building Rigging
   D)  Cyber/Bio/Nano
125 Technomancers
   A) Matrix Mancers "Attach some Ideal and suggestions"
   B)  Rigger Mancers "Attach Some Ideals and Suggestions"
325 to 350 pages total the Rest fluff
Please give us a rough outline on the rules sections as early a possible so our rules team can work with you on fitting these rules in to the current rule set.

Once edited and ready the book should be released in PDF format for open play test with  a from thread to report any problem and possible fixes this thread should be reviewed every month with the PDF being updated with corrections than after 2-4 months a final PDF should be made and sent to the printer for hard copy     
 

[falar]

All definitely true, but after reading your post, I find myself wondering how much money would be saved if instead of full color artwork (it's nice and all, but not really necessary) they went back to most art being the black and white art found in the SR3 core book. I'm especially fond of the one that I believe is an elven street sam with a tattoo of a rose.

Honestly, I find Shadowrun's layout to be pretty basic and uninspiring. I'd love them to get a talented layout professional at the level of Daniel Solis or Fred Hicks. The beauty of Do: Pilgrims of the Flying Temple and the Firefly RPG or the clean, fresh layout of Fate Core would be awesome.

At the same time, I realize that those are much smaller works and have a very tight lead who has been working on them for many years.

[adzling]

I'd be happy with anything that resulted in better rules; including sacrificing full color imagery inside the book.

[AJCarrington]

I'd be happy with anything that resulted in better rules

You've made this point numerous times now. There has been some reasonable (and some not so reasonable) discussion with multiple points of view. Perhaps it is time to move on?

[All4BigGuns]

I'd be happy with anything that resulted in better rules

You've made this point numerous times now. There has been some reasonable (and some not so reasonable) discussion with multiple points of view. Perhaps it is time to move on?

Agreed. This thing is going round and round in circles. Perhaps it's time to lock it?

[MijRai]

I have a friend who is a professional illustrator, and I know he's done some work for Catalyst; I don't know what his rates were with them, but he currently charges about 100 dollars for half-page piece.  Less for spot-pieces, more for page pieces and two-page spreads.  Count up the pieces in a single book and see what you get?

[adzling]

Good point, im putting down the crack pipe.

I'd be happy with anything that resulted in better rules

You've made this point numerous times now. There has been some reasonable (and some not so reasonable) discussion with multiple points of view. Perhaps it is time to move on?

[Patrick Goodman]

Jesus...this thread is still here?

[All4BigGuns]

Jesus...this thread is still here?

Yeah, I don't understand why either...

[Novocrane]

Containment.