[lichzeta]

Hello

I'm new to SR5 and therefore, I checked some information on REDDIT，shadowruntabletop and other forums.

I've seen a lot of people talk about the trick that "An adept with 'nimble fingers' power can reload Cavalier Champion（Street Legal） in a free action"(and I thought that's really cool)

But some of my friends insist that the description of this power clearly states that only "Change Gun Mode, Insert Clip, Remove Clip, and Use Simple Device" can use free action, so any weapon other than "(c)" cannot be reloaded with free action.

How should i convince my friend？（Or be convinced？）

Or is there any official FAQ or Errata that can support this trick?

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'd say your friend has an inappropriately literal reading of the rule.  "Insert Clip" is a colloquial landmine as Shadowrun and real life disagree on what a "clip" is.  But more to the point of the flaw in your friend's reasoning:

The Insert Clip simple action (pg. 165, SR5) covers loading ALL ammo types, not just (c) ammo.  By your friend's reasoning, if Insert Clip doesn't cover (b) ammo, then there's no action possible to reload them.

Edit: note that I reversed my opinion downthread.  It's my opinion that the redditors are the ones taking the unreasonable leap with the rules, rather than your friend.

[Reaver]

I'd say your friend has an inappropriately literal reading of the rule.  "Insert Clip" is a colloquial landmine as Shadowrun and real life disagree on what a "clip" is.  But more to the point of the flaw in your friend's reasoning:

The Insert Clip simple action (pg. 165, SR5) covers loading ALL ammo types, not just (c) ammo.  By your friend's reasoning, if Insert Clip doesn't cover (b) ammo, then there's no action possible to reload them.

except you have to go to page 163 for the list of actions for reloading a fire arm... There is even a nice little table

Inserting a Clip (better known as a detachable Magazine) is the ONLY reloading action that is a simple action. Of course, it also takes a simple action to remove the expended clip first... so... well, other than notching a new arrow for bows.

I don't have the street lethal book (one of the few I missed) and I am not sure that the nimble fingers power actually does so I can not comment on what it allows an adept to do... I'll see if I can find it. 

EDIT:

Found it.

NIMBLE FINGERS
COST: 0.25 PP
Adepts with this ability have exceptional manual dexterity.
In game terms, this grants +1 die to Palming
Tests, Performance Tests where the adept plays a musical
instruments that requires the use of fingers, or
any tests where small tools or items are used (gamemaster’s
discretion). Additionally, the Simple Actions
Change Gun Mode, Insert Clip, Remove Clip, and Use
Simple Device are now considered Free Actions.

It calls out that the following are considered "free actions" for an adept with Nimble fingers: Change Gun Mode, Insert Clip, Remove Clip, and Use
Simple Device.

Other then that, you get a +1 DP for palming, musical play..

and "test where small tools or items are used.." so many build/repair skills as well by my guess.
BUT there is a giant GM discretion listed right there... so it falls under the old catch all of "IF the GM agrees"

Depending on the Cavalier Champion's feed mechanics (I don't know what it is as I don't have that book.) you might be able to argue for a reduction to a simple action instead of a complex action for reloading....

 

[Stainless Steel Devil Rat]

I'd say your friend has an inappropriately literal reading of the rule.  "Insert Clip" is a colloquial landmine as Shadowrun and real life disagree on what a "clip" is.  But more to the point of the flaw in your friend's reasoning:

The Insert Clip simple action (pg. 165, SR5) covers loading ALL ammo types, not just (c) ammo.  By your friend's reasoning, if Insert Clip doesn't cover (b) ammo, then there's no action possible to reload them.

except you have to go to page 163 for the list of actions for reloading a fire arm... There is even a nice little table

Inserting a Clip (better known as a detachable Magazine) is the ONLY reloading action that is a simple action. Of course, it also takes a simple action to remove the expended clip first... so... well, other than notching a new arrow for bows.

I don't have the street lethal book (one of the few I missed) and I am not sure that the nimble fingers power actually does so I can not comment on what it allows an adept to do... I'll see if I can find it.

The text for Insert Clip specifically says to go reference that chart on page 163.  So even when you're reloading a (b) weapon (which the Cavalier Champion is), you're spending an Insert Clip action but in this case it takes a Complex rather than a Simple.

However, on re-reading the Nimble Fingers power, I do have to acknowledge that it says:

Additionally, the Simple Actions
Change Gun Mode, Insert Clip, Remove Clip, and Use
Simple Device are now considered Free Actions.

Now is it more reasonable that the text is saying:

1) Insert Clip is classified as a Simple Action on pg 165 of the SR5 CRB, and therefore this Adept Power works on this "Simple Action" even when that action consumes a Complex Action.

or

2) This Adept Power only works on Insert Clip while it remains a Simple Action, and does not work when Insert Clip requires the expenditure of a Complex action.

Given the context of potentially turning a Complex Action into a Free Action, I have to lean towards #2 here.  And change my opinion to agree with the OP's friend.

[Hobbes]

The obvious solution is armor with the Gear Access mod an just carry around a half dozen Cavalier Champions. 

"Obvious" would be the key word here.  Very, very obvious. 

[Hobbes]

Oh, and also Obviously, you need a Nartaki with Ambidexterity and Perfect Time.

And a Pirate costume.

Parrot optional, but highly recommended.

[adzling]

agree with Stainless, his nuanced reading is correct imho.

[lichzeta]

The text for Insert Clip specifically says to go reference that chart on page 163.  So even when you're reloading a (b) weapon (which the Cavalier Champion is), you're spending an Insert Clip action but in this case it takes a Complex rather than a Simple.

However, on re-reading the Nimble Fingers power, I do have to acknowledge that it says:

Additionally, the Simple Actions
Change Gun Mode, Insert Clip, Remove Clip, and Use
Simple Device are now considered Free Actions.

Now is it more reasonable that the text is saying:

1) Insert Clip is classified as a Simple Action on pg 165 of the SR5 CRB, and therefore this Adept Power works on this "Simple Action" even when that action consumes a Complex Action.

or

2) This Adept Power only works on Insert Clip while it remains a Simple Action, and does not work when Insert Clip requires the expenditure of a Complex action.

Given the context of potentially turning a Complex Action into a Free Action, I have to lean towards #2 here.  And change my opinion to agree with the OP's friend.

However, the Cavalier Champion is different with other "(b)" guns. It only load 1 bullet and only need a simple action.

Since that someone hasn't read SL yet:

CAVALIER CHAMPION (HEAVY PISTOL)
ACC DAM AP MODE RC AMMO AVAIL COST
6     10P  –2    SS   —    1(b)    8R    650¥

Note: This weapon uses the SMG range table and fres Sporting
Rifle ammunition. Reloading a single round in a break action requires
a Simple Action.

That's why I want to discuss the problem.
Of course I know that you can't turn a Complex Action into a Free Action

[Wu Jen]

Note: This weapon uses the SMG range table and fires Sporting Rifle ammunition. Reloading a single round in a break action requires a Simple Action.

P 30 SL, right in the statblock.

Additionally, the Simple Actions
Change Gun Mode, Insert Clip, Remove Clip, and Use
Simple Device are now considered Free Actions.

So simple action becomes free action. If the GM wants to rule that you can't turn a Simple action into a free action, then have your adept buddy pick up Perfect Time (5 Karma)(10 post gen) and get a free action each action phase.

I'm starting to like Perfect Time more and more, so versatile.