[Mollari]

Hey guys

So I know that augmented maximums apply to bioware and cyberware, by description magic applies as an augmented max, and from mission rules drugs also affect this.

To to summarise bioware, cyberware, drugs and magic affect augmented maximums.

Now I have a question about redliner and cyber singularity seeker. There is no comment in any book that says qualities are included in the augmented calculations, and redliner / cyber singularity are the only qualities that add attributes not to the limits.

For those who suggest redliner breaks it because it's about cyberlimbs, it does not explicitly mention it increases the limb, and the writing of it is identical to the cyber singularity.

So how do you guys read it. Do they increase the attribute, act as if you'd purchased 2 with karma (but not), or increase it above its current?

[ShadowcatX]

Nothing can break the augmented max unless it is specifically called out as doing so. If you max out a pair of arms redliner gets you to the maximum, which other people can't do. If you take a pair of arms + 2 more you no longer need to even max out the arms to hit max, saving you a bit of nuyen.

[Mollari]

I guess my point is,

Are qualities considered augments? Because the definition of augments are given to us by them listing what is considered an augment.

Bio, cyber, drugs, magic.

So are qualities? You pay karma for them, so is it really an augment?

[ShadowcatX]

Anything that takes your basic attributes over what they would normally be is an augmentation.

[Mollari]

Can you provide a reference for that?

But just to be clear, you're saying that the qualities only affect augments?

So let's say a character were on 4 will, and bought the quality. They have two cyber arms and legs, so you're saying that they are 4(6), not 6?

[Kiirnodel]

The way I see it, you have 2 options:

1) these qualities are not augmentations. They increase your attribute directly. This means:
    a) they are limited by racial maximums
    b) they increase the cost to improve those attributes.

2) they function like augmentations. Meaning:
    a) they can exceed your racial maximum, but are limited to a total of +4 augmented maximum.
    b) the karma cost to increase the attribute remains at the base vaule.

Functionally speaking there really isn't much difference between 4 (6) and just 6, so I don't see an issue there.

I believe these qualities are meant to function like augmentations.

[DigitalZombie]

I believe the character would have willpower of 4 (6) meaning the cost to uohrade it with karma would be based on the score of willpower 4.

The redliner quality. Is the bonus applied to his cyberlimbs or his base strength and agility score?
A strength 1 agility 1 character could easily have cyberlimbs with 9 strength and 9 agility, thus already breaking the +4 rule. The questiom then becomes if he will be at 1 (3) strength/agility with 9/9 cyberlimbs. Or if he will be strength/agility 1 with 11/11 cyberlimbs?

I think I read somewhere on this board a clarification on that issue, but I cant remeber what the verdict was.

[Mollari]

Hi guys

So in the CF Errata they did clarify that Redliner is supposed to add a +2 to both the cyber and the body. I think this is supposed to help those who either have a disparity between the body and the cyber, and saving the cost of improving the limbs by two. This would also allow the limbs to get a full +4 instead of the +3.

So because this ruling has taken my character for a loop and I'm rebuilding. What is the consensus, because the errata that I've read doesn't clarify?

Does:
1) the +2 from Redliner and Cyber Singularity add to the attribute base. This would mean that if you are on 4 attribute, you're on a 6. Thus saving the karma cost of raising 4-6.
2) the +2 from Redliner and Cyber Singularity adds to the augmented max, and doesn't save any karma cost on the base attribute?

Any references would be fantastic.

Crome Flesh p54
"...this chapter provides Positive and Negative Qualities related to augmentations, including bioware, cyberware and various forms of pharmaceuticals."

The writers have made a point to make reference to augmented maximums and what they apply to for each of the drugs, magic, cyber, bio and magic. These qualities being 'related' to makes then also an augmentation, or only related to them?

[Kiirnodel]

You could also think of it this way: The quality doesn't give any bonuses directly. It just modifies the bonuses that the character receives from cyberlimbs. Since you need the cyber to benefit from this quality, the bonuses are classified as augmentations from cyberware.

[ShadowcatX]

No, some things do effect base attributes, like exceptional attribute. Unless otherwise specificed, however, they are an augmentation.

[ShadowcatX]

A strength 1 agility 1 character could easily have cyberlimbs with 9 strength and 9 agility, thus already breaking the +4 rule. The questiom then becomes if he will be at 1 (3) strength/agility with 9/9 cyberlimbs. Or if he will be strength/agility 1 with 11/11 cyberlimbs?

He would be at 1 (3) with cyberlimbs of 6 (10).

Also, you are totally misunderstanding the +4 rule. The basic cyberlimbs stats (ie. 1-6 for a human) are not augmentations. Once you set the base stats you purchase augmentation bonuses for it separate. (Ie. +1 - +3.) Those are augmentation bonuses.

A cyberlimbs that is 3 (6) would only become 3(7) with redliner at 4 limbs, where as a cyberlimbs with just 6 would become 6 (.

[Mollari]

I agree with you digitalzombie

So the cyberlimb has the enhancement option so that it maintains its own base stat, and can carry it up to the meta's racial max.

So yeah a human can be 1 agi and strength, but buying enhancements can have the limbs at 1(9) with the +3 customisation

So my question is the same as yours.

1) does the redliner quality add +2 to the base meta
2) does the redliner quality add +2 to the cyberlimbs
3) both a and b (which I believe is confirmed by errata)

And

4) does the redliner quality constitute as an augmented bonus only taking the cyberlimbs to 6(10) (for the cyberlimb).

So it sits with wether the quality is an augmentation bonus, a flat attribute bonus, and whether it adheres to the augmented maximum limit.

I have cited Crome Flesh p54 where it describes these qualities as being 'related to'.
We also know that there are references individually to magic, drugs, cyber and bio that adhere to the augmented limit.

Does anyone have any reference to how SR treats these qualities or if they've existed in precious versions?

[Marcus]

 The wording of the quality is very unclear, but if we consider it from  both directions.
If it's just the limb attributes all we are really doing is saving capacity, which is a good bonus.
But not that much capacity, and we are paying premium on top of 10 quality points, by losing CM boxes, a very precious commodity.

The wording does not say it allows you to break maximums. So I don't see that.

From the other side straight raising attributes, we are giving two points to each which will still be considerably lower then the actual limb attributes. So from that perspective I'm gonna go with I believe they add to the straight attribute 6 not 4(6).
In effect that going to raising averaging if your doing something that employs multiple limbs. Which will simply decrease the penalty for using limbs to jack your stats. That seems about right 10 quality points and several CM boxes.

So that's my guess. Is the author around? Did they ever say what was intended during the errata phase?
   

[Xenon]

In which book is Redliner described?

So yeah a human can be 1 agi and strength, but buying enhancements can have the limbs at 6(9) with the +3 customisation

You can customize it up to metatype maxium (in this case 5 points up to 6) and you can enhance them to +3, but yes - a human with agility 1 can get a cyberarm with agility 6(9).


Natural ratings of the body can be increased post chargen by spending Karma up to the metatype maximum. Beyond that you can augment your body. Attributes of the natural body normally have an augmented maximum of +4 (but you can break it with for example wireless enabled wired reflexes + wireless enabled reaction enhancers).

Cyberlimbs can be customized up to natural metatype maximum at installment no matter the current rating of the natural body. You can not customize the cyberlimb after installment. Cyberlimbs have attributes of their own, independent of the rest of your body. Beyond customization you can enhance cyberlimbs. Attributes of cyberlimbs have an enhancement maximum of +3.



Having said that, rules as they are written are stupid. They discourage already physically strong characters (like a troll samurai) to get chromed limbs while they encourage physically weak characters (like a decker) to get a cyberarm.

IMO in a cyberpunk universe you would much more often see a physically strong samurai with chromed arms than a decker. Rules should be changed to reflect this. Also a body with strength 1 that have cyberarms with enhanced strength of 9 should probably risk ripping his own arms out of their sockets ;-)

I think it would make more sense if they capitalized on the following fluff: You can have your cyberlimb tailored and customized to your frame and musculature, to make customization limited by current natural attributes in some way.

[ShadowcatX]

It is worth pointing out that redliner is the only way cyberlimbs can ever see the fourth augmentation point so yes it may be expensive but it provides a completely unique effect.

Also, compare it's karma cost to the karma cost of exceptional attribute, it is not 4x as expensive.