[FastJack]

Since the spell mimics the actual designator, making it so the seeker hardware in the bomb/missile can see and use it, I'd say that means that any countermeasures out there for normal designators also work equally well against it. Just like if your drone's Sensor rating is high enough, it can resist an Improved Invisibility spell.

[KarmaInferno]

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why this spell needs cyberware to fully work.

What other spell bases it's targeting modifiers on the spell effect, instead of the target, like Designate does?

It's like requiring a cyberear for a Clairaudience spell. Shadowrun magic does not work this way.


-k

[FastJack]

The way I understand it, it requires the cyberware so it can mimic the Radar designator only. If you have natural Thermographic vision, then you can mimic the infrared spectrum. For you to mimic the designator, it has to be in a visual frequency that you can see.

Without the cyberware to mimic Radar, it would be akin to asking a person born blind to paint a rainbow.

[Sengir]

Wait. Even a laser designator uses 'encryption', by providing a specific pulse-code to the receiving missile/artillery unit. How does the spell do that?If it mimics the effect of a target designator, then it has to 'know' that code somehow.

Just like anybody using a mundane target designator has to know which code to send. And before you say "the designator does it automatically": The rules do not require a wireless connection to the firing crew, a lpremade list of codes, or anything in this direction. If you want to blame the person(s) who wrote the Designate spell, blame them for building upon pre-established rules which require some GM interpretation.

The only difference for a mage is that he needs to convert the code "ABC" into the physical signal "dit-dit-dat" on carrier frequency X with basenband encoding Y. Not exactly rocket science, although a roll on EW + Logic or something sounds reasonable.

[Kot]

You don't need the cyberware. You need a radar/thermovision sense gained by Detection magic.

[Nath]

Rules for regular target designators in Arsenal (pages 34 and 162) nowhere state the designator and the seeker head to establish a common code prior to the attack or maintain a link to do so. Which imply either easy scrambling on the battlefield nor instanteous data transmission that break the law of physics.

On my own, I'd just tweak the spell, and say the seeker head has to be programed to search for a signal the mage is able to emulate, which must remain simple enough (and thus would be also more vulnerable to scrambling than regular designators).

[KarmaInferno]

The way I understand it, it requires the cyberware so it can mimic the Radar designator only. If you have natural Thermographic vision, then you can mimic the infrared spectrum. For you to mimic the designator, it has to be in a visual frequency that you can see.

Without the cyberware to mimic Radar, it would be akin to asking a person born blind to paint a rainbow.

Except, no other spell operates like this.

All the other spells base their limitations and targeting restrictions on the TARGET. Like, "Do you have line of sight?" or "Is the target the right category?" or "do I have to overcome OR?"

Not on the spell effect.

You can generate a wave of toxic slime, or listen to a conversation a mile away, or any number of other "it just works" effects, but somehow making a point radiate radio energy is restricted by whether or not you can perceive radio waves?

Heck, "Pulse" from Street Magic also creates an electromagnetic emission point, but somehow doesn't require a radar or other radio sense.

On a related note, as an illusion spell, you have to beat your own sensor's Object Resistance just for your sensor to even see the Designate effect.

Personally, I have no issues with the IDEA behind the spell. I don't even mind if the caster wants to modulate the strength of the designator dot in a pre-arranged pattern so the weapon sensor can tell it apart from other designator dots. But I would A) make it a manipulation spell instead of illusion (because it's ACTUALLY making a point of energy appear, not the illusion of one) and B) remove the restrictions needing special senses to cast the other variants, and possibly make each variant a separate spell.



-k

[FastJack]

So... I guess the spell's under-powered instead of the game-breaker it was originally thought it was.

[Tagz]

I'm still trying to figure out why a mage would get this in the first place.

1000¥ for an Illusion type spell formula (haven't read War, it IS Illusion right?)
Learning time of a minimum 1 day
5 karma

All so that a mage can effectively duplicate a 300¥ (Laser) or a 1200¥ (Mirco/Radar) piece of hand held equipment.

Also it seems to me that considering how inexpensive it is to buy one it would make far more sense to send in an Infiltration specialist then a mage to do this type of work, or is it just movies coloring my opinion that target designation is less used in firefights and more for tactical strikes?  Invisibility still makes noise and shows an aura on the astral, Infiltration (been argued at length so I know this to be true) is effective on noise and Astral Perceivers.

I can only think of one single application where this would make sense and this is a situation where a small group needs to designate a target and they expect to be searched for weapons beforehand.

[Otakusensei]

Just like if your drone's Sensor rating is high enough, it can resist an Improved Invisibility spell.

Physical illusions are effective against technological systems, assuming the caster achieves enough hits to meet the Object Resistance threshold (p. 183). They are resisted by Intuition + Counterspelling (if any); non-living devices do not get a resistance test.

[Nomad Zophiel]

It doesn't require cyberware, it requires an intrinsic sense appropriate to the one being used. The examples used in the description are thermosense/vision, which can occur naturally and radar which can't. There seems to be no reason, though, that it couldn't be ultrasound or X-rays or any number of other things that can be gained as a sense through SURGE, Adept Powers or cyberware. As to why it requires that sense, probably for game balance. If you want something other than a visible red dot you have to invest either the BP or Essence into it.

Tagz, the main reason I see for a Mage to get this instead of duplicating a piece of gear is that the gear does need LOS at all times. The spell can pop a designator then the mage can walk away secure in the knowledge that the target will continue to be painted like a bunraku parlor employee.

I wonder if generals in corp armies are anonymous or if their command posts are universally mana warded. Seems like it would have to be one or the other to avoid being targeted by the other side's Designate casters.

[FastJack]

Just like if your drone's Sensor rating is high enough, it can resist an Improved Invisibility spell.

Physical illusions are effective against technological systems, assuming the caster achieves enough hits to meet the Object Resistance threshold (p. 183). They are resisted by Intuition + Counterspelling (if any); non-living devices do not get a resistance test.

Yes, that's what I was talking about. Since Drones/Computers fall into the 5+ Threshold, I usually let the Sensor rating of the drone (or Sensor + Clearsight) to provide the threshold target that the Improved Invisibility must overcome. They don't get to resist with dice since their dogbrains aren't smart enough to take into account noise and smell in conjunction with sight.

[KarmaInferno]

It doesn't require cyberware, it requires an intrinsic sense appropriate to the one being used. The examples used in the description are thermosense/vision, which can occur naturally and radar which can't. There seems to be no reason, though, that it couldn't be ultrasound or X-rays or any number of other things that can be gained as a sense through SURGE, Adept Powers or cyberware. As to why it requires that sense, probably for game balance. If you want something other than a visible red dot you have to invest either the BP or Essence into it.

Yeah, my issue is not really the power level, but that it does not follow previously established paradigms on how spells in Shadowrun work.

There are a bunch of written and unwritten rules about how Magic works in this setting. This is a change to that, and it isn't even called out as a specific change.


-k

[Tagz]

Tagz, the main reason I see for a Mage to get this instead of duplicating a piece of gear is that the gear does need LOS at all times. The spell can pop a designator then the mage can walk away secure in the knowledge that the target will continue to be painted like a bunraku parlor employee.

Rather small benefit.  First off I think this sort of attack would be done primarily towards stationary/semi-stationary targets, such as bunkers, power transformers, logistics tents, parked vehicles, etc rather then highly mobile targets such as personnel, but then I haven't read WAR so maybe that's the intent.  Also I don't imagine one paints a target unless you're going to have it being shot at in the very near future, so tracking for long periods seems silly.  Also, I can walk away from my designator by putting it on a tripod and I can ensure the bunker doesn't fly away by attaching a long range camera to the designator.  And at a distance of Signal 6 in potential range (10km) one can be far enough that all but the most powerful of weapons used won't be a concern to the person setting up the designator, and if one is using a weapon of that scale then pinpointing the location exactly is moot.

Sorry, but the lack of logic on this one just makes my head spin.  It's sort of like a mage making a spell that holds a portion of his body heat to his body so he can go out in the cold without needing a coat.  Why not just wear a coat?  This spell seems like that, only your far more likely to need a coat and not have one then you are to need to remotely paint a target for a pinpoint tactical strike and not be allowed to have a designator.

That and the whole thing with it changing the way magic normally works is just weird.  Requiring an intrinsic sense?  Beyond natural vision of the target in question?  Never needed that before.  Otherwise there's a whole lot of detection spells and manipulation spells that would fall apart having that same sort of prerequisite.  You don't need to see wireless signals to use Interference.  So why this one spell in particular?  Does it use your cyber to SEND the signal?  Just doesn't make much sense to me and given the utility of the spell I don't see why they felt the need to require it, certainly the spell isn't overpowered, so balance doesn't seem an issue.

[Nomad Zophiel]

Well, the "wear a coat" comparison is apt for just about every spell. Why learn fireball when you can just carry a grenade?