[blorgh]

I'm all for constructive criticism towards things fans feel CGL is doing wrong, but this particular "sin" is hardly something to lay at their feet.

Street Samurai Catalog, Shadowtech, Grimoire, Fields of Fire, Rigger Black Book, Rigger 2, Rigger 3, Cannon Companion, Man and Machine, Magic in the Shadows, SOTA '63, SOTA '64...there have always been a ton of books that have hardware (and dis/advantages, and spells, and other new gear) spread out between them.  There are plenty of old SR1 and SR2 books that had crunch in 'em, and it almost always would've been nicer to have it all in one book, sure.

When you consider how much this trope goes back to first edition, it's a little silly to act like this is something that's just cropped up in the last eight or nine months.

But my point is that there's no "resurrection" taking place.  That wasn't a tradition, and then wasn't the tradition for a while, and then now all of a sudden it is, again.  That's just always been part of the format.  Core book lists core material, and then more specific books come out with more specific gear in them.

It's not something to be resurrected, because it's never been dead.  From the very first books released under SR4, that was how it was done.  Arsenal, Augmentation, Unwired, Street Magic...the tradition can't "stay dead" because the tradition never was "dead."

Wrong. And you should know better, because you where there:

One of the stated goals of SR4, back in the days of Rob Boyle and Peter Synner, was that essential crunch would be limited to core books and setting books would not contain crunch.
War! is the very first book that throws this philosophy right out of the window and again mixes setting with new must-have gear.

With the concept of Spy Games being similar to War!, this is a truly unfortunate decision to indeed resurrect an unholy tradition that was to be abandoned with SR4.

[Mäx]

One of the stated goals of SR4, back in the days of Rob Boyle and Peter Synner, was that essential crunch would be limited to core books and setting books would not contain crunch.

Well that goal pretty much allready failed in the planning, when the plan was to have seven core books and pdf suplements for those (other books where supposed to get pdf only supplements similar to Digital Grimoire).

Also a military gear supplement was planned by Synner, as well as bunch of other non core books containing crunch.
So you can't lay lame for those fully on the feet of the new people in charge.

[blorgh]

Well that goal pretty much allready failed in the planning

Strange enough, for a failed plan, it worked out up until War! – the book which focus shifted completely.

None of the setting books had gear included and even Corp Guide did not get special-corp-gear tacked on.

Also a military gear supplement was planned by Synner, as well as bunch of other non core books containing crunch.

Of course, said military supplement had more to do with FoF and military in general than being what War! is now – Bogota plus must-have gear.

[Mäx]

Of course, said military supplement had more to do with FoF and military in general than being what War! is now – Bogota plus must-have gear.

Yes, but thats just it in IMO WAR failed in exactly the opposite way then what your saying, it ended up having all too much setting info in it.
It only failed the no new gear in a setting book paradigm if you count it as a setting book similar to corp guide, vice and the cites of series, which it IIRC was never supposed to be.

[Prime Mover]

Just my two cents but when I think War supplement, I think dedicated to war.  How it works, who's waging it, were it's at and whats being used (gear).  As for the setting fluff, I could see that being a lower cost pdf.  The reason I think setting material is not a big seller is simply the fact it's has a limited shelf life.  If you not using that particular setting long term the info has limited usefulness.  For that reason I think setting material and game rules need to be separated.  Particularly for "core" material like War.

[raggedhalo]

Over on Dumpshock, Synner has said that there were to be two books about war: the First, Dogs of War, would be full of crunchy military kit, and the second (I can't remember the name) would be a campaign module where people would get to use that stuff.  So wheeling out the originally stated intention of former line developers doesn't really help your case here.

[Bull]

Also, please, find me a quote from either of those that said there would never be any new gear in a new book?  The goal was to condense things as much as possible, but that was also the goal in SR3.   It's always the goal of a new edition, to collect the assorted gear creep that occurs.

PLus, as has been pointed out, War! was planned originally by Peter.  The format and content evolved a bit as it went through several other developers, but new gear was always part of the plan.

Bull

[blorgh]

Over on Dumpshock, Synner has said that there were to be two books about war: the First, Dogs of War, would be full of crunchy military kit, and the second (I can't remember the name) would be a campaign module where people would get to use that stuff.  So wheeling out the originally stated intention of former line developers doesn't really help your case here.

Thank you for agreeing that it actually does. You know – separating gear and setting.

Also, please, find me a quote from either of those that said there would never be any new gear in a new book?

Please find me a quote from me that said anything like "never any new gear in a new book".

[imperialus]

Over on Dumpshock, Synner has said that there were to be two books about war: the First, Dogs of War, would be full of crunchy military kit, and the second (I can't remember the name) would be a campaign module where people would get to use that stuff.  So wheeling out the originally stated intention of former line developers doesn't really help your case here.

Thank you for agreeing that it actually does. You know – separating gear and setting.

Then you would hear people complaining that they had to buy two different books to get full use out of either.  I like the War format personally.  It would be nice if the transition between fluff and crunch was handled a bit more smoothly, but "no est un mundo perfecto."

[Mäx]

Then you would hear people complaining that they had to buy two different books to get full use out of either.  I like the War format personally. 

Me too, the book should just have had a little more crunch and a little less sluff

[blorgh]

Then you would hear people complaining that they had to buy two different books to get full use out of either.

You mean like with War! followed shortly by MilSpec?

[Otakusensei]

War! is basically 126 pages of Emergance and 54 pages of Unwired with neither side developed half as well.  If you were waiting for an in depth look at the setting as a vehicle for mercenaries and the equipment and tactics they use, you're going to be disappointed.  If you were looking for a detail of the war between Aztlan and Amazonia; profiles, the history, the start, the major battles, the warriors and their nationally specific ways of waging war... you'll be disappointed.  If you're looking for Bogota: The Location Book and 30 pages of gear that you can really only use about 10 of, then you'll be happy with your $18 purchase.

Separating the fluff and the crunch is a solid development choice.  Any table will need both to really be playing Shadowrun, but that way you aren't trying to recall what was happening in the metaplot when x bit of gear got released so you can look it up to see what it does again.  It means that people who don't give a lick about Bogota don't have to flip past 110 pages of the setting (an admittedly alternate setting meant for mercs and other military oriented characters) to get to a small section that contains an even smaller subset of high end gear a player can hope to have.

You can never fully take the fluff out of the crunch or the crunch out of the fluff, and you shouldn't try.  But War! is a book that's going to sell more copies on the back 30 pages than it ever sees for the first 110, and the development staff are fully aware of that.  That's why the rest of the material they had written up for War! but decided to hold back will be sold separately to you in an attempt to double dip a fan bases well known love for crunch.

Also it's good idea to go over to DS and look up the post by Synner that described the original plan for the book that became War!.  You'll see the plan for an updated version of Fields of Fire with an eye to the changes that made SR4 and SR4A such a revolution for the setting and mechanics.

[Dread Moores]

That's why the rest of the material they had written up for War! but decided to hold back will be sold separately to you in an attempt to double dip a fan bases well known love for crunch.

And you have something to back that statement up as proof, I'm hoping? That contrary to the points made by Critias and others, it wasn't simply a supplemental product developed through a different developmental group and process? Even though that is something which has indeed been done with Battletech and Shadowrun in the past? Is there actually something that shows this was a willful attempt to withhold material ready to be published in WAR! (without changing the price point somehow), other than your supposition stated as fact? Because if so, I'd really love to see. It would certainly be information that the fanbase may want to see.

I understand if you don't like the ideas of supplementals. I can be iffy on them at times myself, but don't subscribe malicious intent unless it is actually there. Note: It may be, I have no idea. I'm just curious what information led you to that conclusion, when the folks involved with the development have shown a very different intent (and information to support the parallel development).

[Otakusensei]

That's why the rest of the material they had written up for War! but decided to hold back will be sold separately to you in an attempt to double dip a fan bases well known love for crunch.

And you have something to back that statement up as proof, I'm hoping? That contrary to the points made by Critias and others, it wasn't simply a supplemental product developed through a different developmental group and process? Even though that is something which has indeed been done with Battletech and Shadowrun in the past? Is there actually something that shows this was a willful attempt to withhold material ready to be published in WAR! (without changing the price point somehow), other than your supposition stated as fact? Because if so, I'd really love to see. It would certainly be information that the fanbase may want to see.

I understand if you don't like the ideas of supplementals. I can be iffy on them at times myself, but don't subscribe malicious intent unless it is actually there. Note: It may be, I have no idea. I'm just curious what information led you to that conclusion, when the folks involved with the development have shown a very different intent (and information to support the parallel development).

Mäx has a pretty good summation of how one could assume Milspoec was overflow here:

http://forums.shadowrun4.com/index.php?topic=1858.msg20183#msg20183

And actually, I really like the idea of supplementals.  But I think a book on a subject in a game line should be the definitive work in the setting until such time as the developer feels they need to refresh it or add to it.  Adding to it right away seems like double dipping, Digital Grimoire was timed just right to an aging magic supplement to refreshing things and make the first SR4 core supplement that much livelier.  Milspec gear being released right on the heels of a book that featured a section of milspec gear isn't a refresh, if CGL wanted $25 for the PDF of War! they should have put it up for the that price.

I have heard the saying "Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by stupidity", so I wanted to mention the problem here and see what the people who made the call have to say.

[Bull]

Yeah, at some point Jason had a post where he says something like "We couldn't fit everything in one book".  That's basically a sales pitch, showing the two books work together, and at this point is now slightly unfortunate wording. 

<shrug>

I can assure you the two were designed to be separate products, and that MilTech is not "Cut material".  I suppose, believe me or not, your call.  Either way, it's not really worth discussing further, since whats done is done.

Bull