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SR5 Shape [Material] hurting people with elements

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Dudesomebody

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« on: <08-08-20/1350:46> »
  My group has been discussing playing shadowrun after we finish up our current game so we have been working on character concepts a lot lately. An idea that keeps popping up is something like a bender from avatar. So popular is the concept that even pathfinder has a class for it. To make things simpler on our poor GM we have agreed to limit our madness to elemental attack spells and the shape [material] spell, this brings me to my questions.
  What are the mechanics for attacking someone with the shape [material] spell?? Thematically, you are moving a damaging element (fire, electricity, etc) onto a person. Thats simple enough, but what would the mage roll for attack or would they roll anything at all?? Damage from fire or electricity is also simple, same damage as if you where exposed to it through non magical means, but what about elements that don't normally have a damage code. I hit someone with a blast of air does it do damage or just knock down?? what are the mechanics for that??
  I know a lot of this will be GM caveat but I have always found it easier to explain something to GMs/players if I have something I can point at, like a discussion among fellow runners. Its why I bug you guys so much, you have all been super helpful, if slightly insane  :P


Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <08-09-20/1212:11> »
This is a manipulation spell that let you manipulate an element or material. With 3 hits you get to move the element or material at a speed of 1 meter per second (3.5 km/h).

This is not very fast... ;-)

If you wish to actually attack people using different elemental magical attacks then you should look at physical indirect combat spells.

Clout and Blast if you wish to hit them with kinetic energy ("wind"). Flamethrower and Fireball if you wish to hit them with fire. Lightning bolt and Lighting ball. Acid Stream and Toxic Wave (corrosive acid damage).

markelphoenix

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« Reply #2 on: <08-09-20/1222:14> »
Does fire count as a material type?

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #3 on: <08-09-20/1230:10> »
I suppose it might, but it doesn't seem like it'd be very practical.

Move the fire away from its fuel, and it goes out.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Reaver

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« Reply #4 on: <08-09-20/1236:11> »
Well, there is a few things to consider... The first is what the spell says exactly.

Quote
Street Grimoire pg 118
SHAPE [MATERIAL]
(ENVIRONMENTAL, AREA)
Type: P Range: LOS (A)
Duration: S Drain: F Ė 2
Shape [Material] allows the spellcaster to move and
shape a volume of a specified inorganic element or material
(air, earth, water, fire, mud, lava, plasteel, concrete,
tar, etc.) within range of the spell. First, the caster must
beat the materialís Object Resistance threshold (p. 295,
SR5)
and then mentally command it to his whims. The
material can be moved and reshaped in any way the
caster desires at a maximum Movement Rate of (net
hits) meters per turn
. Loose material can be moved and
re-shaped easily, but material that is connected or reinforced
(such as walls or other material part of a structure)
must be broken apart by reducing its Structure Rating by
Force points per Combat Turn
. This
spell allows the caster
to rapidly dig holes, redirect streams, fill balloons, create
a path through a fire, construct a barricade, or create
a doorway where one didnít exist before.
Each element/material requires a separate spell such
as Shape Sand, Shape Ice, Shape Wood, Shape Concrete,
and so on. Elements or materials reshaped by the
caster remain frozen in that form when the spell ends.
If that form cannot be supported by the material, it will
collapse into rumble. The material/element can also be
spread out, extinguished, or evaporated. For example, a
fire could be extinguished by reducing the Power by the
casterís Spellcasting hits each turn


As we can see, this is not really meant to be an attack power, as there are many steps involved to start with.
Also, this power doesn't create said element out of thin air, it must be there for the spell to affect. So shape "Fire" is useless unless there is a fire nearby for the spell to affect...
Shape "Concrete" needs to overcome the OR of concrete, THEN break down the structure of the object before it can be used for anything (including shaping a door in a wall, like the spell is for), so this is going to take time....

BUT, if you are dead set on using this as an attack, then I would propose the following:

treat as an indirect attack for determining hits. Use force for base damage code (AFTER object resistance is factored in. The object resistance is going to determine just "how much" of the element is being manipulated... a raging fire in a trash can is all well and good, but if the amount being manipulated is equal to a match...)

Consult elemental damage in the CRB (page 170-171) for any additional effects (if any... bashing a guy with a slab of rock isn't going to magically melt armor for example)
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Reaver

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« Reply #5 on: <08-09-20/1240:19> »
Does fire count as a material type?

Technically, Fire is an exothermic release of energy.... so it would depend on what is burning for the O.R. I guess...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #6 on: <08-09-20/1411:24> »
Shape [Material] allows the spellcaster to move and shape a volume of a specified inorganic element or material (air, earth, water, fire, mud, lava, plasteel, concrete, tar, etc.)

Dudesomebody

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« Reply #7 on: <08-09-20/2138:24> »

Quote
As we can see, this is not really meant to be an attack power, as there are many steps involved to start with.
Also, this power doesn't create said element out of thin air, it must be there for the spell to affect. So shape "Fire" is useless unless there is a fire nearby for the spell to affect...
Shape "Concrete" needs to overcome the OR of concrete, THEN break down the structure of the object before it can be used for anything (including shaping a door in a wall, like the spell is for), so this is going to take time....

BUT, if you are dead set on using this as an attack, then I would propose the following:

treat as an indirect attack for determining hits. Use force for base damage code (AFTER object resistance is factored in. The object resistance is going to determine just "how much" of the element is being manipulated... a raging fire in a trash can is all well and good, but if the amount being manipulated is equal to a match...)

Consult elemental damage in the CRB (page 170-171) for any additional effects (if any... bashing a guy with a slab of rock isn't going to magically melt armor for example)

Gah, so much for saving my poor GM's sanity!! Do you have a page number for indirect attacks?? All I keep finding are rules for indirect spells, might be bad at this shadowrun thing but I'm pretty sure thats not it  :P

Reaver

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« Reply #8 on: <08-10-20/0130:56> »

Quote
As we can see, this is not really meant to be an attack power, as there are many steps involved to start with.
Also, this power doesn't create said element out of thin air, it must be there for the spell to affect. So shape "Fire" is useless unless there is a fire nearby for the spell to affect...
Shape "Concrete" needs to overcome the OR of concrete, THEN break down the structure of the object before it can be used for anything (including shaping a door in a wall, like the spell is for), so this is going to take time....

BUT, if you are dead set on using this as an attack, then I would propose the following:

treat as an indirect attack for determining hits. Use force for base damage code (AFTER object resistance is factored in. The object resistance is going to determine just "how much" of the element is being manipulated... a raging fire in a trash can is all well and good, but if the amount being manipulated is equal to a match...)

Consult elemental damage in the CRB (page 170-171) for any additional effects (if any... bashing a guy with a slab of rock isn't going to magically melt armor for example)

Gah, so much for saving my poor GM's sanity!! Do you have a page number for indirect attacks?? All I keep finding are rules for indirect spells, might be bad at this shadowrun thing but I'm pretty sure thats not it  :P

No, that is what you are looking for, Indirect spell attacks.

Really, what you are trying to do (attack wise) is no different then the already existing elemental attack spells... but with a different flavor/twist...

Shape "fire", is really not going to be much different then the Flamethrower spell... The only difference is, with flamethrower, you create the fire you are projecting.
With Shape "Fire" you are shaping an exisiting fire into a column of fire (or a bolt, or vorpal bunny of fire) to attack the target.

But,, like I said before, Shape isn't really meant to be an attack spell, its meant to be an environmental manipulation spell... (Need a way into that bank? Shape "concrete" will make you your own door in just a minute!).


when you sit down that think about it the shape "element" spells... some might be useful, some are almost useless... Shape "Fire" may sound like a cool attack option.. but again, requires a fire to be present before the spell works... and where are you going to find fire readily available in the 2080s? You could say " a book of matches or a lighter", but as a GM, would you allow a match fueled flame to melt someone's face off??

So yea.... issues...
« Last Edit: <08-10-20/0137:36> by Reaver »
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

Xenon

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« Reply #9 on: <08-10-20/0302:31> »
The Shape Fire spell is not really meant to be used as an attack. I think the intent behind the shape fire manipulation spell is rather that it let you walk into a burning house while commanding the flames to move away from you. Come to think of it, a magician that knows the the shape fire manipulation spell probably make an excellent fire fighter.

If you wish to shoot fire at someone with the intent of dealing damage to the subject you normally use the flamethrower or the Fireball indirect combat spell. Or the Firewater and the Napalm indirect combat spells (variants of Flamethrower and Fireball spells, but also involve water).

If you wish to engulf a willing target in fire (like your melee adept) you use the Fire Aura manipulation spell.

If you wish to engulf an unwilling target (or object) you use the Ignite manipulation spell.

You also have the Fire Wall manipulation spell which let you create a wall or dome of fire.

Different spells, different utility. If your character concept have a heavy focus on fire you should probably get several of them.

Dudesomebody

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« Reply #10 on: <08-10-20/2328:47> »
@Reaver, I see, thank you muchly. I was thinking indirect would be like dropping heavy objects, not really throwing attack. Using the indirect spell rules would make things a lot simpler. For making fire in 2080 there is a bracer in, I think hard targets, it has a mini flamethrower on it and they specifically mention it was made for a mage that wanted to manipulate fire and got sick of having to look for flame :)

@Xenon, I understand that the combat spells are a thing, shape material has the benefit of being a spell you maintain as opposed to cast every turn and it has more versatility out of combat. Personally, I think magic fingers or fling would be of more use for hurting people with objects (ie earth bending) but I was asked to find rules for shape material and here I am. And they would be a boss firefighter and that gives me an idea for a character :D

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #11 on: <08-11-20/0145:25> »
... And they would be a boss firefighter and that gives me an idea for a character :D

Do bear in mind that Fear, Panic, Death, and Toxic materials are all notorious for generating Background Counts... and building fires are prone to having most if not all of those factors present...  If you're gonna fight fires with magic, do have a plan for if the magic wilts before the mana storm like a flower before the flames.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, youíre fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Xenon

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« Reply #12 on: <08-11-20/0513:21> »
shape material has the benefit of being a spell you maintain as opposed to cast every turn
So is Fire Aura and Fire Wall. And Ignite you cast once then you sustain it until it becomes permanent and the object catch fire and start to burn on its own.

Dudesomebody

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« Reply #13 on: <08-11-20/1419:26> »
So is Fire Aura and Fire Wall. And Ignite you cast once then you sustain it until it becomes permanent and the object catch fire and start to burn on its own.

Oh I know, many weird ass spell combinations have been discussed. Shape [material] was just one we where having issue with and surprisingly, bender type characters dont get much focus outside of 'use [element]attack spell'. I get why but I like thinking outside the box :D

  The Element aura and wall might be a good way to have your desired element on hand without gear. Extra step but low object resistance.