NEWS

melee combat and strength

  • 54 Replies
  • 10470 Views

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #30 on: <02-25-20/0348:49> »
Heavy Machine Guns are what, 60kg? Grenade Launchers <10. Assault Cannon <40. Miniguns also like 40kg. That's only 150kg. A Strength 5 Ork can carry 250 kg in SR6. Seems plausible, really. Maybe go 'half it for constant carrying, so drop 1 of them'.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #31 on: <02-25-20/1020:53> »
Yeah, when it comes to 5E recoil, I just tell new players, "There's a chart that basically boils down to Recoil=Bullets Fired, your target takes Bullets - 1 as a Dodge test penalty. If you want recoil to never be an issue, just put these attachments on your gun and fire every other turn. Or buy a double-barreled shotgun, or a Warhawk."

Minimum STR to wield huge weapons is fine, and is a sort of RAW workaround for that rule that says, "you can carry 10xSTR kg before you get encumbered" but weight is listed for nothing but explosives.

I don't mind because granular encumbrance by weight alone always has odd/not-fun corner cases, and because an upper limit on the amount of C-12 you can personally transport is, in this case, a good thing.

Some days I wish they did put weights next to weapons... it might solve some logistics issues I have seen....

"Let me get this right.... You're an Ork... with 5 STR.... and your weapons carried currently are... A mini-gun... A stoner heavy machine gun, a Cannon, AND a grenade launcher???"

No. Just, NO.


Which usually gets boils into an argument, then a google search.. a little paperwork... and some one trying to justify 1000kg of weapons and ammo being carried around in hand...

I agree with you, but on the other hand I have to acknowledge that "the GM's word is law" is a much better way to handle encumbrance.  Who wants to add all those numbers up?  The GM gets to just say how much any given list of gear weighs.  Can it be abused? Yes.  Is it better than creating, then referencing, a ginormous list of pedantic data?  Also yes.
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Reaver

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 6422
  • 60% alcohol 40% asshole...
« Reply #32 on: <02-25-20/1403:35> »
Heavy Machine Guns are what, 60kg? Grenade Launchers <10. Assault Cannon <40. Miniguns also like 40kg. That's only 150kg. A Strength 5 Ork can carry 250 kg in SR6. Seems plausible, really. Maybe go 'half it for constant carrying, so drop 1 of them'.

m134 minigun (7.62x51mm) 134lbs.
Battery pack to minigun 64 lbs
m2 browning maching gun 85lbs     (closest thing to the Stoner he had)
Assault cannons are mostly fictional. Especially man portable. however Anzo 20mm is probably close to the panther.... at 93lbs...
m11 grenade launcher 14lbs....


Add in the all the ammo that he was trying to carry...

2000 rnds minigun, 1000 rnds HMG, 300 rnds cannon, 100 grenades... you get your 1000kg...

And, the mental image of an ork, with a 12 foot wooden cabinet on filled with ammo and weapons strapped to his back...


@SSDR
I agree, you get some reasonable people together with a little common sense, and you can suss out this type of thing pretty quickly.... But I have found that Common Sense is getting harder and harder to find...
Where am I going? And why am I in a hand basket ???

Remember: You can't fix Stupid. But you can beat on it with a 2x4 until it smartens up! Or dies.

CanRay

  • *
  • Freelancer
  • Mr. Johnson
  • ***
  • Posts: 11141
  • Spouter of Random Words
« Reply #33 on: <02-25-20/2122:52> »
For some people, 100-round belts are enough.

For everyone else, there's the Krime Pack!   ;D
Si vis pacem, para bellum

#ThisTaserGoesTo11

Singularity

  • *
  • Chummer
  • **
  • Posts: 178
« Reply #34 on: <02-27-20/0420:24> »
For some people, 100-round belts are enough.

For everyone else, there's the Krime Pack!   ;D

So what you are saying is that...Krime does pay, after all?  ;D

Finstersang

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 751
« Reply #35 on: <02-27-20/0643:41> »
To get back to the original topic:

For once, I actually like the change in the errata, because it brings a consistent use for Strength to all forms of melee combat. Yes, itīs a nerf to Hi-Strength Unarmed Combat, but that nerf was absolutely justified. Unarmed outclassed most melee weapons even at relatively tame Strength ratings. In fact, Iīd actually say that the current fixed Damage of 2 is already quite high, considering the fact that batons, saps and small pistols have the same Damage Code. And not to speak of the bone augmentations (which are weirdly unbalanced as well, but thatīs a thing for another thread...)

However, I do see that thereīs a general shortcoming of the current solution (apart from how sloppily itīs executed in the updated CRB  ::)): It doesnīt scale well, because itīs prone to all the problems of the Edge system and the AR/DR system. If you already got your Edge - or denied the edge to a highly armored target - more Strength doesnīt help. Also, thereīs the dreadfull Limit of 2 Edge per round and other edge-denying factors. Thatīs why it feels like yet another nerf to strength instead of a buff for armed melee to many players. If high-Strength melee fighters could use the benefit from Strength in a more flexible way, that wouldnīt be such an issue. Two suggestions:

  • Allow Melee fighters to trade off AR for increased Damage, similar to firing additional bullets in ranged combat: 3 AR for +1 Damage, with a limit of STR/3 additional Damage seems reasonable, maybe with an additional minor action to activate. This is my current homebrew solution, because it merges my previous houserule ("Reduce unarmed combat to Strength/3 (round up), add Strength/3 (round down) to all melee weapons") with the new official rules. Note that this tradeoff is deliberately worse than the tradeoff for shooting: Apart from balancing issues, you have to take into account that firing more bullets, well, uses more bullets.
  • An alternative idea that I currently donīt use: Allow melee fighters to flip Strength and Agility for the whole attack: You roll Strength + Close Combat for the attack, but you add Agility to the DR (or Reaction) to determine the attack rating. The "flip" could be announced for each attack or it could require an additional Minor Action to "switch the stance".

Both of these ideas can theoretically be combined, allthough that might be a little bit too messy. Nevertheless, they add some depth, solve the issues at hand and could be easily "patched on" with Supplements/Updates/Errata. They can also be further elaborated with some fitting MA rules. F.i., if one of these options requires an additional minor Action, a MA technique might remove that requirement and allow it for free.

I donīt know whatīs coming up in the combat supplement, but thereīs definetely some opportunities for improvement. I just hope it doesnīt turn out like in 5th Edition, where most of the MA techniques are just underwhelming dice pool bonuses for underused combat tricks.
« Last Edit: <02-27-20/0706:41> by Finstersang »

adzling

  • *
  • Guest
« Reply #36 on: <02-27-20/1054:01> »
Heavy Machine Guns are what, 60kg? Grenade Launchers <10. Assault Cannon <40. Miniguns also like 40kg. That's only 150kg. A Strength 5 Ork can carry 250 kg in SR6. Seems plausible, really. Maybe go 'half it for constant carrying, so drop 1 of them'.

lol no wonder you like 6e, a connection to reality is clearly not important to you

MercilessMing

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 598
« Reply #37 on: <02-27-20/1159:18> »
I think the fact that it doesn't scale well is why they did it.  I think they're generally ok with melee AR's suddenly being up to 10 points higher, because it can't change much, so it's lower risk.  The crazy edge case numbers are only important when you and I try to tweak the system to make AR/DR matter more.

Quote
An alternative idea that I currently donīt use: Allow melee fighters to flip Strength and Agility for the whole attack: You roll Strength + Close Combat for the attack, but you add Agility to the DR (or Reaction) to determine the attack rating. The "flip" could be announced for each attack or it could require an additional Minor Action to "switch the stance".
Personally, flipping STR & AGI is too much bookkeeping for me.  I'm fine with letting them roll STR and keep STR for AR.

I do like your idea about trading AR for damage, that's also a good houserule I think.  Just gotta watch out for those super high AR's really destroying the curve.

Michael Chandra

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 9922
  • Question-slicing ninja
« Reply #38 on: <02-27-20/1213:54> »
If guns can sacrifice AR for DV, it makes sense to allow the same for melee attacks. Wonder if it would make for a nice martial arts thing.
How am I not part of the forum?? O_O I am both active and angry!

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #39 on: <02-27-20/1322:57> »
I didn't even set the bar high on those builds man, they were the basic bitches of how to get a DR so high that worn armor is 100% completely irrelevant to the game.

DR doesn't matter unless you think Edge matters.  If you think Edge matters you can build for high Attack Value.  Point your optimization talents at building for high AV.  It gets high enough that the high DR builds matter.

Monofilimant whip used by an Adept hits a 28 26 (derp, math is hard) AV.  14 + 2 Wireless +2 Enhanced Accuracy Adept power + 8 Reaction.

Combat Axe used by a 10 Str is 19, another +2 from Enhanced Accuracy Adept power, 21.

Unarmed Attacks by a Samurai....  Str + Reaction + Bone Lacing gets you to 18 without much effort.  Low 20s for Trolls / Orcs if they really try.

Several guns have a 12 base at some range bracket, add Smartgun and Enhanced Accuracy you're up to a 16 modified by Ammo and Firing mode for your Gun Adepts.

Combat characters should be building to generate Edge somehow.  High AV or high DR gets you a passive way of getting your 2 Edge per turn for a lot of builds, so it's "worth" doing.

I look at it sorta like MMOs where the Edge spend represents the high burst damage moves, and the regular attacks are basically the "Autoattack" turns where you're building up the Edge Resource to fuel the Burst damage.  Whatever your preferred Edge move is.  Knockout Blow, Shank, Called Shot, Anticipate, exploding 6s, whatever your jam is.

YMMV.  But if you're a combat character and you're ignoring Edge, you're simply not as effective as you could be.  How you feel about that is 100% subjective  :  )

What the heck was the topic of this thread again.....?  Oh hey, couple of sentences actually on topic, go me!
« Last Edit: <02-27-20/1626:05> by Hobbes »

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
« Reply #40 on: <02-27-20/1627:06> »
Lol Hobbes. Threads derail easily around here, what can we say? :p

I basically agree on the DR/edge issue. If edge gain wasn't capped so low it might be a different matter.

I have to disagree about AR ever equaling pace with DR, though. Cyberlimb armor completely busts AR's chances of ever catching up.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #41 on: <02-27-20/1749:28> »
Yes DR can outstrip AR via Cyberlimbs or Mystic Armor.  But these aren't casual build choices.  2 PP or 2 Essence worth of limbs isn't going to fit in every build.  Cyberlimbs have considerable opportunity cost, and other than DR they're kinda gimpy (honestly they're flat out terrible, ymmv, IMO, ect).

You can stack up Body, Armor, and Orthoskin/Bonelacing.  Dermal Deposits.  And/Or a crapton of Mystic Armor.  Bonelacing (Bone Augmentation) are good deals for other reasons.  Orthoskin has no use other than DR.  Dermal Deposits are a good deal for a point of DR. 

I think ranged AR is cheaper, but has a lower cap than DR, and melee AR has a higher cap than guns do so a dedicated melee character can stay competitive with higher DR characters up to a point.  DR has other costs usually (Essence/PP) to really get jinky with it.

And lets not forget, not everyone is a combat monster from the get go.  Deckers, Mages, Faces get shot at too, and assuming 8 Body, and 10+ Armor total from multiple sources isn't particularly realistic for all Archetypes. 

Samurai with low to mid teen DR, sure, easy-peasy.  Technomancer?  Probably single digit.

Oh and everyone's favorite summoned Spirits would have pretty high AV for punching stuff in most cases. 

So, on topic, if you want your big Axe Swinging Troll to be as effective in Combat as possible, you'll take Str to generate Edge.  Or build a sooooper tough Troll with 2 Str to generate Edge when getting attacked  : )   But the offensive option leaves the Edge generation in the player's control, rather than a passive, waiting to see if the GM is going to oblige you and shoot the tank.

That got all kinds of ramblely....sorry. 

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
« Reply #42 on: <02-27-20/1828:11> »
Again, I basically agree all around. In particular that there is not really a good reason to use limited resources to get DR that high with the current system. Increasing AR is also less resource intensive than increasing DR for the most part.

The game is playable as is, I am just unable to get over my complete loathing for issues around armor and strength. My Missions character will be a grenade chucking Troll with a massive DR in assless chaps just to highlight my frustrations.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

  • *
  • Errata Coordinator
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 4572
« Reply #43 on: <02-27-20/1832:03> »
...My Missions character will be a grenade chucking Troll with a massive DR in assless chaps just to highlight my frustrations...

That may not necessarily work out as well for you as you might expect.

I mean the grenades part.  Assless chaps in Missions is perfectly acceptable, right? :D
RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.

Lormyr

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 820
« Reply #44 on: <02-27-20/1836:22> »
I'll feel much better if grenades are nerfed into the ground, but I know I don't need to tell you that. If not, I will abuse the shit out of them until more people besides me complain!

Hey man, everyone needs a good distinctive style. :) Under the armor section I am just going to write "Magnificent Abs and Magic Assless Chaps".
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling