[Top Dog]

The SR4A CRB p. 204 disagrees with you, Top Dog:

Affecting the target’s being on this fundamental level with raw mana requires more focus and more power than producing basic effects; as a result every net hit used to increase the damage value of a Direct Combat spell also increases the Drain DV of the spell by +1.

Huh. I never noticed that line (optional or otherwise). I don't think my GM did, either (it helps that I mostly did other things; I only got stunball in the last session).

[emsquared]

I have 5 force/magic
12 dice to cast my spells.
9 dice to resist DV
13 dice to shoot my gun. and have a vent on it that lower the recoil by 3.

So lets say i cast a powerbolt at my standard force 5. it has 3 DV if i remember right.
I rolled with 5 net hits. that give me a DV of 8... i fails the resist and got stun and killed?

See that's your problem, pregen PCs suck, they're built like its from someone who's never played the game.

Like I said the most important thing for a caster to be able to do is MANAGE DRAIN. Not cast spells. You need to be able to manage your Drain mechanically, and through your play style.

[kongkim]

Let's take your advantage of Powerbolt, force 5, and assume people roll average.

You cast Powerbolt, with 12 dice. Your average is 4 hits, and the average to resist with, say, 4 defense dice, for 1 hit. That's 3 net hits.

Those net hits apply only to the damage you deal to the other guy. Not to your drain! So you do 5 base damage (because force 5) + 3 net hits, for 8 damage. Unlike guns, this isn't further soaked by armor.

Then comes the drain resist. The drain value for powerbolt is (F/2)+1, so 5/2+1. Drain value is rounded down in SR4, so 3 drain. Drain only depends on the force of the spell. Since you have 9 drain resist dice, you roll 3 on average, so on average you take no drain (though, of course, you'll roll badly sometimes).

Net result is that the enemy takes an average of 8 damage, while you occasionally take 1 or 2 stun damage if you roll badly.

I think the confusion here comes from the abbreviation DV, which stands both for Damage Value and Drain Value. The Combat Spells section mentions that net hits increase the DV, but that refers only to Damage Value, not drain value (it's listed under the Damage Value subheader, after all).

---

Now, guns will have similar results to this - you'll get on average about the same net hits, DV will be higher but guns get an armor roll on top of that. And yes, guns have the advantage of shooting twice. But you have the advantage of options - you can choose to overcast at force 10, greatly increasing the damage you take but almost guaranteeing the opponents immediate demise. And you have other spells available. Plus, your listed dicepools are lowish - not terrible for a starting character, but certainly something you'll increase later on. As stated, getting your Drain Resist up (get the Centering metamagic!) will help a lot, since you'll be able to use higher force spells with less danger to yourself.

Ok, but as Lucean say the book tell another version of that. That DV always get a +1 on net hits from spells.
Si it will make more sense if what ZeConster say is right that the rule has been changed as it really fuck up the Drain on combat spells :S So maybe we just skip that rule.

But still 2 Burn guns in each hand let you shoot 2 time with each gun. Its a hell lot of penalties you get but you can deal out some insane damage with out damaging your self

[Top Dog]

But still 2 Burn guns in each hand let you shoot 2 time with each gun. Its a hell lot of penalties you get but you can deal out some insane damage with out damaging your self

Well, yes. If magic was equal to guns in that case and has the ability to overcast for insane damage and allows you to damage groups and spirits with ease and gives you the other options a mage had, there'd be no reason to play a street sam. Mages measure up decent enough in "regular" combat, and you can specialize in it and do some ridiculous damage (like Emsquared says, once you get enough drain resist overcasting isn't really a problem anymore). But street sams are probably going to be better at the only thing they do well.

[Ryo]

You make it sound so good
Its just not how i feel when playing haha.

I have a little out of the box combat mage with an smg gun something something.

I have 5 force/magic
12 dice to cast my spells.
9 dice to resist DV
13 dice to shoot my gun. and have a vent on it that lower the recoil by 3.

So lets say i cast a powerbolt at my standard force 5. it has 3 DV if i remember right.
I rolled with 5 net hits. that give me a DV of 8... i fails the resist and got stun and killed?
Never ever had a chance to fight or do anything?

That even make what to shoot my gun next time...

Im not sure here maybe we got it wrong.
But you can do a complet action or 2 simple in your turn right?
Shooting a gun is a simple? So that allows you to shoot to times right? Making guns even better?

Why do you only have 9 dice to resist drain? You should be rolling Willpower + Charisma or Logic. One of those should be at 6, the other at 5. Did you actually put a 3 in one of your drain stats? That's just bad character building.

You can also get more drain dice by using a Fetish for your spells, which gives you +2 to the roll, but you can't cast the spell at all if you don't have your Fetish on you. I believe they cost 200 in 4th edition.

If you got 5 net hits, the other guy is outright dead. 10P with no chance to soak damage. You then have to deal with 8 Stun damage, and with only 9 dice, you probably would take some drain. But it wouldn't even knock you out, let alone kill you, since your minimum stun track would be 10, even if you dumped Willpower for some insane reason. You could get 0 hits on that roll and would still be standing. Then you could just grab a medkit and heal some of the stun you just took, and take an hour nap to heal the rest, and be fine.

And if they actually errata'd the +1 Drain per net hit thing like ZeConster said, then it's even more ridiculous. 10P for 3 drain, which you should soak easily even with 9 dice.

And that +1 drain rule only applies to Direct Combat spells, not all spells. Indirect Combat Spells do not increase drain with net hits, nor do other categories of spells, like Manipulation. So your earlier example of killing yourself by casting Armor was also very wrong.

It's also worth noting that you take drain AFTER your spell takes effect, not before. So even if you do cast a ridiculous Force 10 powerball with 10 net hits, you'd nuke the city block first, murdering everyone within line of sight inside, and THEN you'd have to soak the 15P drain. You'd probably die, but they'd die first.

[kongkim]

You make it sound so good
Its just not how i feel when playing haha.

I have a little out of the box combat mage with an smg gun something something.

I have 5 force/magic
12 dice to cast my spells.
9 dice to resist DV
13 dice to shoot my gun. and have a vent on it that lower the recoil by 3.

So lets say i cast a powerbolt at my standard force 5. it has 3 DV if i remember right.
I rolled with 5 net hits. that give me a DV of 8... i fails the resist and got stun and killed?
Never ever had a chance to fight or do anything?

That even make what to shoot my gun next time...

Im not sure here maybe we got it wrong.
But you can do a complet action or 2 simple in your turn right?
Shooting a gun is a simple? So that allows you to shoot to times right? Making guns even better?

Why do you only have 9 dice to resist drain? You should be rolling Willpower + Charisma or Logic. One of those should be at 6, the other at 5. Did you actually put a 3 in one of your drain stats? That's just bad character building.

You can also get more drain dice by using a Fetish for your spells, which gives you +2 to the roll, but you can't cast the spell at all if you don't have your Fetish on you. I believe they cost 200 in 4th edition.

If you got 5 net hits, the other guy is outright dead. 10P with no chance to soak damage. You then have to deal with 8 Stun damage, and with only 9 dice, you probably would take some drain. But it wouldn't even knock you out, let alone kill you, since your minimum stun track would be 10, even if you dumped Willpower for some insane reason. You could get 0 hits on that roll and would still be standing. Then you could just grab a medkit and heal some of the stun you just took, and take an hour nap to heal the rest, and be fine.

And if they actually errata'd the +1 Drain per net hit thing like ZeConster said, then it's even more ridiculous. 10P for 3 drain, which you should soak easily even with 9 dice.

And that +1 drain rule only applies to Direct Combat spells, not all spells. Indirect Combat Spells do not increase drain with net hits, nor do other categories of spells, like Manipulation. So your earlier example of killing yourself by casting Armor was also very wrong.

It's also worth noting that you take drain AFTER your spell takes effect, not before. So even if you do cast a ridiculous Force 10 powerball with 10 net hits, you'd nuke the city block first, murdering everyone within line of sight inside, and THEN you'd have to soak the 15P drain. You'd probably die, but they'd die first.

It depend on what group you play with and how you play. We are more for the roleplay then always max out stats out. But still combat is a importent ting and not fun to kill your self
And powerbold as i were talking about is a single taget spell so yah i nuked one killed my self and then there were still two enemies left.
In every game even if you make a avarage chr. you should still be able to do well but not over the top
But will get a Fetish to help me out next time and then i think we drop the +1 drain rule for net hits.

[Ryo]

You make it sound so good
Its just not how i feel when playing haha.

I have a little out of the box combat mage with an smg gun something something.

I have 5 force/magic
12 dice to cast my spells.
9 dice to resist DV
13 dice to shoot my gun. and have a vent on it that lower the recoil by 3.

So lets say i cast a powerbolt at my standard force 5. it has 3 DV if i remember right.
I rolled with 5 net hits. that give me a DV of 8... i fails the resist and got stun and killed?
Never ever had a chance to fight or do anything?

That even make what to shoot my gun next time...

Im not sure here maybe we got it wrong.
But you can do a complet action or 2 simple in your turn right?
Shooting a gun is a simple? So that allows you to shoot to times right? Making guns even better?

Why do you only have 9 dice to resist drain? You should be rolling Willpower + Charisma or Logic. One of those should be at 6, the other at 5. Did you actually put a 3 in one of your drain stats? That's just bad character building.

You can also get more drain dice by using a Fetish for your spells, which gives you +2 to the roll, but you can't cast the spell at all if you don't have your Fetish on you. I believe they cost 200 in 4th edition.

If you got 5 net hits, the other guy is outright dead. 10P with no chance to soak damage. You then have to deal with 8 Stun damage, and with only 9 dice, you probably would take some drain. But it wouldn't even knock you out, let alone kill you, since your minimum stun track would be 10, even if you dumped Willpower for some insane reason. You could get 0 hits on that roll and would still be standing. Then you could just grab a medkit and heal some of the stun you just took, and take an hour nap to heal the rest, and be fine.

And if they actually errata'd the +1 Drain per net hit thing like ZeConster said, then it's even more ridiculous. 10P for 3 drain, which you should soak easily even with 9 dice.

And that +1 drain rule only applies to Direct Combat spells, not all spells. Indirect Combat Spells do not increase drain with net hits, nor do other categories of spells, like Manipulation. So your earlier example of killing yourself by casting Armor was also very wrong.

It's also worth noting that you take drain AFTER your spell takes effect, not before. So even if you do cast a ridiculous Force 10 powerball with 10 net hits, you'd nuke the city block first, murdering everyone within line of sight inside, and THEN you'd have to soak the 15P drain. You'd probably die, but they'd die first.

It depend on what group you play with and how you play. We are more for the roleplay then always max out stats out. But still combat is a importent ting and not fun to kill your self
And powerbold as i were talking about is a single taget spell so yah i nuked one killed my self and then there were still two enemies left.
In every game even if you make a avarage chr. you should still be able to do well but not over the top
But will get a Fetish to help me out next time and then i think we drop the +1 drain rule for net hits.

Roleplay is all well and good, but unless you want to roleplay being a bad mage, you built yourself wrong. You can have a good character to roleplay while still being functional mechanically. If you want to be an average mage, don't apply your net hits to damage. You can choose not to use your net hits. No extra damage, but no extra drain either. You still do the 5 base damage, but your 3 drain would be a lot easier to soak.

How did you kill yourself with 8 stun? You wouldn't even be unconscious. Even if you got no hits, you'd still be standing with 2 wounds, and could easily recover from that with a first aid test or an hour or so of rest. And if the Wound penalties are a problem, carry stimulant patches. No mage should ever leave home without them.

[kongkim]

You make it sound so good
Its just not how i feel when playing haha.

I have a little out of the box combat mage with an smg gun something something.

I have 5 force/magic
12 dice to cast my spells.
9 dice to resist DV
13 dice to shoot my gun. and have a vent on it that lower the recoil by 3.

So lets say i cast a powerbolt at my standard force 5. it has 3 DV if i remember right.
I rolled with 5 net hits. that give me a DV of 8... i fails the resist and got stun and killed?
Never ever had a chance to fight or do anything?

That even make what to shoot my gun next time...

Im not sure here maybe we got it wrong.
But you can do a complet action or 2 simple in your turn right?
Shooting a gun is a simple? So that allows you to shoot to times right? Making guns even better?

Why do you only have 9 dice to resist drain? You should be rolling Willpower + Charisma or Logic. One of those should be at 6, the other at 5. Did you actually put a 3 in one of your drain stats? That's just bad character building.

You can also get more drain dice by using a Fetish for your spells, which gives you +2 to the roll, but you can't cast the spell at all if you don't have your Fetish on you. I believe they cost 200 in 4th edition.

If you got 5 net hits, the other guy is outright dead. 10P with no chance to soak damage. You then have to deal with 8 Stun damage, and with only 9 dice, you probably would take some drain. But it wouldn't even knock you out, let alone kill you, since your minimum stun track would be 10, even if you dumped Willpower for some insane reason. You could get 0 hits on that roll and would still be standing. Then you could just grab a medkit and heal some of the stun you just took, and take an hour nap to heal the rest, and be fine.

And if they actually errata'd the +1 Drain per net hit thing like ZeConster said, then it's even more ridiculous. 10P for 3 drain, which you should soak easily even with 9 dice.

And that +1 drain rule only applies to Direct Combat spells, not all spells. Indirect Combat Spells do not increase drain with net hits, nor do other categories of spells, like Manipulation. So your earlier example of killing yourself by casting Armor was also very wrong.

It's also worth noting that you take drain AFTER your spell takes effect, not before. So even if you do cast a ridiculous Force 10 powerball with 10 net hits, you'd nuke the city block first, murdering everyone within line of sight inside, and THEN you'd have to soak the 15P drain. You'd probably die, but they'd die first.

It depend on what group you play with and how you play. We are more for the roleplay then always max out stats out. But still combat is a importent ting and not fun to kill your self
And powerbold as i were talking about is a single taget spell so yah i nuked one killed my self and then there were still two enemies left.
In every game even if you make a avarage chr. you should still be able to do well but not over the top
But will get a Fetish to help me out next time and then i think we drop the +1 drain rule for net hits.

Roleplay is all well and good, but unless you want to roleplay being a bad mage, you built yourself wrong. You can have a good character to roleplay while still being functional mechanically. If you want to be an average mage, don't apply your net hits to damage. You can choose not to use your net hits. No extra damage, but no extra drain either. You still do the 5 base damage, but your 3 drain would be a lot easier to soak.

How did you kill yourself with 8 stun? You wouldn't even be unconscious. Even if you got no hits, you'd still be standing with 2 wounds, and could easily recover from that with a first aid test or an hour or so of rest. And if the Wound penalties are a problem, carry stimulant patches. No mage should ever leave home without them.

First of we are new to the game so didn't start with all that.
And got 2 stun damage alrady so that mekes it 10 and i got stun. 8 in damage is still a freaking lot when there is still enemies standing.
The world of Shadowrun is really cool and fun. But in really no huge fan on the system yet. Its to easy to gimp your self or power game as on of the others have done. its not very well balanced and to many factors and rolls to keep in mind. and the mats for drain for every spell. its not hard i know but still.

Maybe it grow on me in time. as said still like the world and fun to play in

[Ryo]

Are you actually rolling opposed tests correctly? First you managed to get 5 net hits on a Force 5 spell, which means the other guy got no hits. Then you took 8 stun from casting it, which means you got no hits to soak drain. You should have at least gotten 1 or 2 hits with 9 dice, with 3 hits being the average. Are you aware of the Edge mechanic? Because 0 hits on 9 dice to soak damage and keep yourself conscious is a great time to spend Edge to reroll.

Assuming your Willpower is at least 5, you should have 11 stun boxes, not 10. and if you have less than Willpower 5 as a Magician, you have a really bad build.

[kongkim]

Are you actually rolling opposed tests correctly? First you managed to get 5 net hits on a Force 5 spell, which means the other guy got no hits. Then you took 8 stun from casting it, which means you got no hits to soak drain. You should have at least gotten 1 or 2 hits with 9 dice, with 3 hits being the average. Are you aware of the Edge mechanic? Because 0 hits on 9 dice to soak damage and keep yourself conscious is a great time to spend Edge to reroll.

Assuming your Willpower is at least 5, you should have 11 stun boxes, not 10. and if you have less than Willpower 5 as a Magician, you have a really bad build.

I think so But ofc. i can be wrong haha. But yah it was a very bad roll.
And yes i know of edge haha but not when i made the char. so only had one that was used

I got 5 hits on the force+spellcasting roll. that give the powerbolt 8 DV that i did not resist. And he only have body to soke with right?

[Ryo]

I think so But ofc. i can be wrong haha. But yah it was a very bad roll.
And yes i know of edge haha but not when i made the char. so only had one that was used

I got 5 hits on the force+spellcasting roll. that give the powerbolt 8 DV that i did not resist. And he only have body to soke with right?

No, that's not at all how it works.

You roll Magic + Spellcasting. Force determines how many hits you get to keep, the base damage, and the base drain. So you got 5 hits, that's the maximum you can get at Force 5. If you had cast the spell at force 2, only 2 of those 5 hits would count, for example.

The other guy then rolls Body to resist. If he got 1 hit, you would only have 4 net hits. The Net hits are how many hits you have in excess of what he rolled to resist. So in order for you to have 5 net hits, the other guy had to get zero hits. Totally possible when only rolling Body, but if he did get 1 or 2 hits, you would have done less damage and taken less drain. After his resistance roll, he doesn't get to roll anything to reduce damage and takes Force + net hits directly as damage.

You then get Force/2 + net hits drain. You said you got 5 net hits, so that's 8 drain, which you resist with Logic + Willpower if you're a Hermetic mage, or Charisma + Willpower if you're a shaman. You said you have 9 dice to resist, so I assume you either have 5 Logic and 4 Willpower, 6 Logic and 3 Willpower, or some other combination of stats that give you 9, yet still put you at only 10 stun boxes. Every hit you roll on those 9 dice reduces the drain you take. So if you get 2 hits, you only take 6 drain. If you get 4 hits, you only take 4 drain.

On 9 dice, you should have gotten 3 hits on average and would have taken 5 drain. A result of 0 hits on that resistance is amazingly bad. Considering you managed to get 5 hits on 12 dice with your previous roll, it's pretty amazing you got nothing on the drain resistance.

[kongkim]

I think so But ofc. i can be wrong haha. But yah it was a very bad roll.
And yes i know of edge haha but not when i made the char. so only had one that was used

I got 5 hits on the force+spellcasting roll. that give the powerbolt 8 DV that i did not resist. And he only have body to soke with right?

No, that's not at all how it works.

You roll Magic + Spellcasting. Force determines how many hits you get to keep, the base damage, and the base drain. So you got 5 hits, that's the maximum you can get at Force 5. If you had cast the spell at force 2, only 2 of those 5 hits would count, for example.

The other guy then rolls Body to resist. If he got 1 hit, you would only have 4 net hits. The Net hits are how many hits you have in excess of what he rolled to resist. So in order for you to have 5 net hits, the other guy had to get zero hits. Totally possible when only rolling Body, but if he did get 1 or 2 hits, you would have done less damage and taken less drain. After his resistance roll, he doesn't get to roll anything to reduce damage and takes Force + net hits directly as damage.

You then get Force/2 + net hits drain. You said you got 5 net hits, so that's 8 drain, which you resist with Logic + Willpower if you're a Hermetic mage, or Charisma + Willpower if you're a shaman. You said you have 9 dice to resist, so I assume you either have 5 Logic and 4 Willpower, 6 Logic and 3 Willpower, or some other combination of stats that give you 9, yet still put you at only 10 stun boxes. Every hit you roll on those 9 dice reduces the drain you take. So if you get 2 hits, you only take 6 drain. If you get 4 hits, you only take 4 drain.

On 9 dice, you should have gotten 3 hits on average and would have taken 5 drain. A result of 0 hits on that resistance is amazingly bad. Considering you managed to get 5 hits on 12 dice with your previous roll, it's pretty amazing you got nothing on the drain resistance.

Maybe im just a little tired as its late here.
But you end up with the same as i said? 8 DV?
And the damage of the spell is my force + het hits? Ors is that were im wrong.

[Ryo]

The damage they take is Force + net hits. The net hits are the total hits you get, minus the total hits they got. You only got 5 net hits if they got 0 hits to resist.

The damage you take is Force /2 + net hits. At Force 5 with 5 net hits, that's 8 stun. You only take 8 stun if you got 0 hits to soak drain.

[kongkim]

The damage they take is Force + net hits. The net hits are the total hits you get, minus the total hits they got. You only got 5 net hits if they got 0 hits to resist.

The damage you take is Force /2 + net hits. At Force 5 with 5 net hits, that's 8 stun. You only take 8 stun if you got 0 hits to soak drain.

Yah that was how i did it
We play again here in next week so will see how it go. Godt some good point in here

[emsquared]

Might be worth it to ask your GM if you can rebuild the PC and boost your Drain stats. I know you didn't build the PC in the first place, but post what you have, here in the Character Creation forum and you'll get all kinds of help. Probably more than you might care for.