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Can spells create matter?

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Archone

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« on: <02-19-14/2343:39> »
I'm playing around with the concept of a mage with the Shape Plasteel spell, and... I'm wondering if it's possible to create a custom spell to create a quantity of plasteel. Or to summon it, or whatnot. I know you can summon elements and ice and whatnot... are there rules for creating plasteel? Or am I being dense about something?

Namikaze

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« Reply #1 on: <02-20-14/0028:43> »
Is this in some edition other than 5th?  There's no Shape Plasteel spell in 5th edition.  In 2nd edition, there were spells that manipulated matter.  They allowed shapeshifting, gigantic growth, etc.  It's been a long time since I looked at my 3rd edition book, but I think those types of spells were gone by then.  In all editions, there was the ability to create fire and lightning.  4th edition's Street Magic supplement introduced a ton of other elements as well (glass, sand, blast, etc.).  But I can't recall any edition that allows the creation of matter.
« Last Edit: <02-20-14/0030:46> by Namikaze »
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #2 on: <02-20-14/0030:59> »
Maybe as a stained spell, they had element wall spells but matter can;t be created on a permanent level. Back in SR3, they had a creagte food spell but they since then there has been a hard rule about not creating matter.  When the magic book comes out for SR5 we will know more about if they are going to change that rule. But for SR4 which is what I assume you are talking about the answer is a solid no. 

Reaver

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« Reply #3 on: <02-20-14/0031:51> »
magic doesn't really "create" anything...

when you cast a spell, you are forcing the Mana of an area to "do something" for you, this could picking someone up (levitate), turning an area into flame (fireball, flamethrower), you cleansing a body (healing, detox).

But mana doesn't create anything lasting, it all disappears once concentration is broken.*

then there is this little blurb on page 282 (red box)

Quote
Physical spells: When using Physical spells, the magician
converts the channeled mana to energy and/or tangible material
in the physical world. The tangible material is simpleóenergy or
matter such as ice, acid, oxygen, heat, light, etc
. This material
is also temporary unless sustained, converting back to mana
energy when the spell ends. Physical spells can affect both living
and non-living objects in the physical world.





*there are some spells that must be maintained to leave a permanent construct behind, but these spells are either really rare in the list of spells, or are "healing" spells.
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Mithlas

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« Reply #4 on: <02-20-14/0035:12> »
Ninja'd by Reaver. Although I can't think of a single spell that's Permanent that isn't a heal spell - is there a single example of such?

Triskavanski

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« Reply #5 on: <02-20-14/0038:29> »
Influence is a P type.

Dakka

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« Reply #6 on: <02-20-14/0042:44> »
In those cases the spell is using mana to influence the body to do something on its own.  Given enough time the effects on the body become permanent because the body itself is sustaining it.  Once you are healed you are healed, once you are influenced your brain is rewired, etc.

The closest thing I can think of to Create Plasteel is Physical Barrier.  Once the sustain is gone tho, the barrier will dissolve.  Up the Drain value and up the Barrier rating accordingly.

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« Reply #7 on: <02-20-14/0424:22> »
Thanks for the replies. This is 4th edition we're using. And yes, Shape (Element/material) is the spell I'm using. I'm going to just carry around a riot shield - which is, after all, a big chunk of plasteel. So if nothing else, I always have some on hand.

Sendaz

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« Reply #8 on: <02-20-14/0636:44> »
also look at Shape Plascrete or whatever your local buildings are made out of.

Why hack the door when you can just open up a wall/floor/ceiling? :P

Plus you just close it back up after you leave, gives the snoopers/sniffers headaches when trying to backtrack.
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« Reply #9 on: <02-20-14/1024:13> »
also look at Shape Plascrete or whatever your local buildings are made out of.

Why hack the door when you can just open up a wall/floor/ceiling? :P

Plus you just close it back up after you leave, gives the snoopers/sniffers headaches when trying to backtrack.

I would imagine the drain on something like that might leave the body of the caster behind.  Additionally, the astral signature has got to be glowing like a neon sign.
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jim1701

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« Reply #10 on: <02-20-14/1027:12> »
You could create a spell that creates matter out of mana but I think it would be impossible to make any such structure permanent.  It would only last as long as you could sustain the spell.  Also, the matter would have to be a simple object.  Otherwise I'd create the spell "summon sportscar"  ;D 

Of course when it comes to creating new spells it is generally up to GM discretion and I can't see one allowing a mage to create a complex object out of mana. 

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« Reply #11 on: <02-20-14/1058:06> »
Shape Autocannon
From the aether of the universe, the mage creates the magical equivalent of a Panther Assault Cannon.  The gun lasts forever, never breaks, and fires magical bullets that never miss and never run out.

Shape Sportscar
From the aether of the universe, the mage creates a magical equivalent of a Mitsubishi Nightsky.  The car never breaks down, travels at the speed of thought, and always gets the passengers to their destination on time and in comfort.

Shape Nuclear Bomb
No.

At what point does this kind of thing get absurd?  At the point when matter is created from nothing.  That's something Shadowrun has been very adamant about for decades.  You can manipulate the energy of things around you, you can even use it to replicate the effects of an element (temporarily) but you cannot create something from nothing.
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Triskavanski

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« Reply #12 on: <02-20-14/1109:35> »
What about T-1000?

You know, cant make moving parts, chemical reactions that sort of thing?

Or if you're trying to make something complex like that well, you're going to be making lots and lots and lots of little checks both to cast the spell and to have the knowledge and know how of how to actually shape the parts in the first place. Plus of course having the memory of every little tiny piece needed for the things to work.

And how would the thing 'never run out of ammo' or never get damage?

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« Reply #13 on: <02-20-14/1113:54> »
also look at Shape Plascrete or whatever your local buildings are made out of.

Why hack the door when you can just open up a wall/floor/ceiling? :P

Plus you just close it back up after you leave, gives the snoopers/sniffers headaches when trying to backtrack.

I would imagine the drain on something like that might leave the body of the caster behind.  Additionally, the astral signature has got to be glowing like a neon sign.
Have you actually seen the Shape [Material] spell in the Street Magic book?  because it almost seems like we are talking about two different spells.
It's really not that bad as you are not affecting the whole building but rather a small area of it.  Yes you have to overcome Object resistance and it may take some time as it must be broken   apart by reducing its Structure rating by   Force points per Combat Turn.   This   spell   allows the caster to   rapidly dig holes, redirect streams,   fill balloons, create   a path through   a fire,   construct   a barricade, or   create a doorway where one didnít   exist   before.   Sure you will leave a signature behind, but if you got the time and training, that can be erased as well.

Shape Autocannon
From the aether of the universe, the mage creates the magical equivalent of a Panther Assault Cannon.  The gun lasts forever, never breaks, and fires magical bullets that never miss and never run out.

Shape Sportscar
From the aether of the universe, the mage creates a magical equivalent of a Mitsubishi Nightsky.  The car never breaks down, travels at the speed of thought, and always gets the passengers to their destination on time and in comfort.

Shape Nuclear Bomb
No.

At what point does this kind of thing get absurd?  At the point when matter is created from nothing.  That's something Shadowrun has been very adamant about for decades.  You can manipulate the energy of things around you, you can even use it to replicate the effects of an element (temporarily) but you cannot create something from nothing.
Okay, now you are no longer talking about Shape spells which do not create matter, just alter its shape and such.

As for making a vehicle out of aether, why not just build a special ally that takes a form of a vehicle like a certain SR novel mage did?  He never had to fuel it and it handled really well. :P

« Last Edit: <02-20-14/1120:33> by Sendaz »
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« Reply #14 on: <02-20-14/1121:43> »
True, but the topic thread is about spells that create matter.  Not shape it.
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