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[4e] Hitting a bullet with a bullet?

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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #15 on: <11-27-13/1146:29> »
If I remove the exaggeration for effect, the statement is that it has a very high probability of killing you - far, far higher than you should be comfortable with.  There's a reason why the vast majority of players get very, very nervous about summoning or compiling past about 9 or so.
Yeah, had not done the math on surviving the complying process in some time. Much safer to keep the rating at 10 to 12. I think part of the reason that I had r16 sprites, was the party has crazy ideas of trying to kill a dragon in combat. If making the sprite didn't kill me a dragon would lol.

well, if you GM will let you go for it...

but don't expect it to work in missions play or at an other table....
Just wondering then... too much gray ares within rules abused there then? Or am I breaking rules?

RHat

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« Reply #16 on: <11-27-13/1150:21> »
Just wondering then... too much gray ares within rules abused there then? Or am I breaking rules?

You have to go fully outside the rules for this.  Technically, it's not explicitly permitted - but even the closest match doesn't permit for it with projectiles of that speed.
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #17 on: <11-27-13/1223:40> »
To clarify, at this point I was more wondering about a sprite rigging into a technomancer's body being legal or not.

RHat

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« Reply #18 on: <11-27-13/1231:07> »
That's pretty much flat out - the technomancer is not a device; their body as a whole does not interact with the Matrix even if it does interact with some Resonance abilities, only the bionode is at all connected to the Matrix.  The only possible way I can see to rig a body, and this is DEEP into grey area, is to have a Technomancer use Mind Over Machine to jump into someone's Move-By-Wire (as Mind Over Machine lets you jump into a device as if it had rigger adaptation, and a Stirrup Interface is "basically a Move-By-Wire system with rigger adaptation"); sprites cannot even get to that except possibly free sprites.

A biowire is close-ish to skillwires, but they're not at all the same - and skillwires alone wouldn't, even in the greyest of cases, get you to what you want, nor would a sprite that you'd be able to compile.

And, frankly, I don't see a sprite pulling this off on a drone - sprites aren't really distinctly faster than a Sam with Wired Reflexes 2, an Adept with Improved Reflexes 2, a rigger in Hot Sim VR, or a mage with 3 hits on an Increase Reflexes.  They're not appreciably faster in combat than anyone else is regardless of Rating; they might win Initiative and go first, but they can't act or react with greater speed than anyone else.  The fastest you can get is 5 VR passes, but that's available only with specific augmentations or echoes.
« Last Edit: <11-27-13/1236:38> by RHat »
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #19 on: <11-27-13/1333:38> »
That's pretty much flat out - the technomancer is not a device; their body as a whole does not interact with the Matrix even if it does interact with some Resonance abilities, only the bionode is at all connected to the Matrix.  The only possible way I can see to rig a body, and this is DEEP into grey area, is to have a Technomancer use Mind Over Machine to jump into someone's Move-By-Wire (as Mind Over Machine lets you jump into a device as if it had rigger adaptation, and a Stirrup Interface is "basically a Move-By-Wire system with rigger adaptation"); sprites cannot even get to that except possibly free sprites.
Rig into to the technomancer body was poor word choice. Sprite are similar to agents and agents don't need a rigger adaption to run a vehicle. To me the question is how is the biologic PAN and the brain connected? You can take real damage from black IC, it would seem there would some sort of direct connection.

A biowire is close-ish to skillwires, but they're not at all the same - and skillwires alone wouldn't, even in the greyest of cases, get you to what you want, nor would a sprite that you'd be able to compile.
Wasn't even sure that I needed biowire. The technomancer is not going to be rigged into per say, it more like giving up control of part of brain to sprite control. Adhering to provided rules would require mostly like require a Stirrup Interface that sprite uses.

And, frankly, I don't see a sprite pulling this off on a drone - sprites aren't really distinctly faster than a Sam with Wired Reflexes 2, an Adept with Improved Reflexes 2, a rigger in Hot Sim VR, or a mage with 3 hits on an Increase Reflexes.  They're not appreciably faster in combat than anyone else is regardless of Rating; they might win Initiative and go first, but they can't act or react with greater speed than anyone else.  The fastest you can get is 5 VR passes, but that's available only with specific augmentations or echoes.
Not sure why you think that. "A Pilot program is basically a System program with extra features, and so is used whenever the drone’s System rating would be. It also stands for a drone’s “Mental attributes” when called for (usually Intuition and Logic, and sometimes Willpower)." So that sprite could have 16  Intuition and Logic, that would make them insanely fast?

RHat

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« Reply #20 on: <11-27-13/1348:49> »
That's pretty much flat out - the technomancer is not a device; their body as a whole does not interact with the Matrix even if it does interact with some Resonance abilities, only the bionode is at all connected to the Matrix.  The only possible way I can see to rig a body, and this is DEEP into grey area, is to have a Technomancer use Mind Over Machine to jump into someone's Move-By-Wire (as Mind Over Machine lets you jump into a device as if it had rigger adaptation, and a Stirrup Interface is "basically a Move-By-Wire system with rigger adaptation"); sprites cannot even get to that except possibly free sprites.
Rig into to the technomancer body was poor word choice. Sprite are similar to agents and agents don't need a rigger adaption to run a vehicle. To me the question is how is the biologic PAN and the brain connected? You can take real damage from black IC, it would seem there would some sort of direct connection.

A biowire is close-ish to skillwires, but they're not at all the same - and skillwires alone wouldn't, even in the greyest of cases, get you to what you want, nor would a sprite that you'd be able to compile.
Wasn't even sure that I needed biowire. The technomancer is not going to be rigged into per say, it more like giving up control of part of brain to sprite control. Adhering to provided rules would require mostly like require a Stirrup Interface that sprite uses.

And, frankly, I don't see a sprite pulling this off on a drone - sprites aren't really distinctly faster than a Sam with Wired Reflexes 2, an Adept with Improved Reflexes 2, a rigger in Hot Sim VR, or a mage with 3 hits on an Increase Reflexes.  They're not appreciably faster in combat than anyone else is regardless of Rating; they might win Initiative and go first, but they can't act or react with greater speed than anyone else.  The fastest you can get is 5 VR passes, but that's available only with specific augmentations or echoes.
Not sure why you think that. "A Pilot program is basically a System program with extra features, and so is used whenever the drone’s System rating would be. It also stands for a drone’s “Mental attributes” when called for (usually Intuition and Logic, and sometimes Willpower)." So that sprite could have 16  Intuition and Logic, that would make them insanely fast?

1) What you're talking about isn't achievable.  The damage Black IC does is bio-feedback, which has nothing to do with the interaction between the bionode and the body - bio-feedback hits mundanes just as hard, if not harder (depending on the Technomancer's Charisma).  The bio-node is not the brain; it is impossible to go from the bio-node to the brain.  This is important and made sufficiently clear in Unwired.

2) That is not possible.  At all.  The closest possible way to achieve something like this involves having or somehow mimicking the Stirrup Interface, which would require 'ware and a specific Echo, and even then it's very grey area.  There is no possible way to go from bio-node to brain.  What you're looking for, basically, is a technomancer analogue to Possession spirits, which simply doesn't exist (and getting it would involve giving up other capabilities of your sprites, much like Possession Magicians cannot summon spirits with the Materialization power, substantially limiting how their spirits can operate).  As far as this goes, it's not simply a matter of the rules not existing; it contravenes how things work in-setting.

3) Doesn't change their initiative passes, so no, it doesn't make them faster (Initiative Passes measuring how much you can do in a given amount of time, and as such being the useful metric of speed here).  It has an impact on Initiative order, but does not allow them to compress actions into a tighter time scale than they would otherwise be able to do them in.
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #21 on: <11-27-13/1502:30> »
1) Have page numbers where that is clarified in unwired? I either missed it or miss read it, most likely the latter.

3) I completely miss understood what you were getting at. Anyhow, so a combat turn is 3 seconds. You have 3 Initiative Passes so that is 1 action phase per second. You have take one complex or two simple actions. So that would be 0.5 second per simple action, which is pretty quick but not fast enough. But the rules do not state that simple action is necessarily 1/2 the time of a action phase. Could one simple action take 0.9 seconds while the another 0.1 seconds or for the matter does the action even use the whole second? My line thinking was with such high attributes the speed at which it could process tasks would be greater. Duo core process and quad core processor both could a task just a difference of time required.

RHat

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« Reply #22 on: <11-27-13/1553:45> »
Quote
Roleplaying Biological Node
Hacking
Having your b io -no de
hacked is an unpleasant experi-ence for any technomancer—it
is, in e ect, an intruder in your
head. Just as the biological node is not a normal “place” in the
Matrix, however, it should also not be confused for the tech-nomancer’s brain.The bio-node is a construct created and
maintained by the brain as an extension of their abilities. So while
a biological node can be hacked, this does not mean the hacking
technomancer can gain any control over the target’s memories,
thoughts, personality, or actions. Instead, hacking a bio-node is
more akin to attacking the root of a technomancer’s Resonance
abilities.

Page 136.  As an aside, the word "brain" occurs a lot in Unwired...

If we're looking at the duration of a Simple Action, because any two Simple Actions can be combined and they take the same amount of time as a Complex Action, we have to assume it's an even split.  Free Actions may take much less time.

If something took that large a share of a pass, it would be a Complex Action - and regardless of that, the travel time of a bullet is smaller than the space of the action at the absolute fastest - we'll call a pass 0.6 Seconds (considering specifically a character in VR with 5 passes); a bullet travelling at 291 m/s moves 174.6 m in that time; if we assume the Complex or 2 Simple actions are 0.5 seconds, that's 145.5m in the COMPLEX action you'd be trying to pull here, that's 67% of what are being tossed around as the outside of urban engagement ranges; it's 0.34 of a second to travel 100m).  Just calculating the trajectories would be an extended test; even if we give it the very fastest interval time (which wouldn't make much sense), you're looking at rushing the job from 3 seconds to 1.5 to 0.75 to 0.325 (assuming you GM even lets you stack rushes), and glitching if you get half (1, 2, 3, or 4).  In that space, you're looking for what would probably be assigned Hard or Extreme difficulty - you're trying to get 18 or 24 hits on one roll, and that's even before attempting to fire a bullet on the exact calculated trajectory.  And this is the sort of operation that multi-threading cannot help - you're performing a set of related calculations, so you'd need it to be a single thread or things just get worse.

If we take this to a sprite, and we consider this a Logic + Intuition Extended Test (1 Combat Turn, 18) - do keep in mind that 1 Combat Turn is the shortest possible interval on the table - a Rating 16 sprite will roll 32 dice for 10.67 hits per interval, requiring 2 Combat Turns to make the calculations.  In that time, the bullet (not factoring for deceleration) will have traveled 1.746 kilometres.
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #23 on: <11-27-13/1630:44> »
So current system point defense can acquire and destroy a target in 0.3 seconds. Not that matters so much, but making the sprite take an extend test to do something he was design for seems silly. Like having a calculator to find the answer to 3.75^324, but then you don't get to use the calculator. Yeah that would be insanely hard, the autosoft should be seen as tools or a like to lower the threshold. Or not even make a test, do you make extended test to shoot the size micro drone speeding towards you?

RHat

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« Reply #24 on: <11-27-13/1637:39> »
A sprite wasn't "designed" for this.  Far as anyone knows, they weren't "designed" in the first place, and certainly not for any known purpose.

And why don't you link me to an article on those systems, then?
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #25 on: <11-27-13/1704:28> »
By designed mean that you have chosen to compile a machine sprite and you have also selected its complex forms, that not sprites were created or designed for shooting bullets with bullets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Close-in_weapon_system
Mmm its states 1/3 not not 0.3, still pretty fast at 0.33 seconds.
« Last Edit: <11-27-13/1706:42> by MajorTwitch »

RHat

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« Reply #26 on: <11-27-13/1808:11> »
Yeah, big frigging difference at play - much larger projectile to be intercepted, travelling a far, far, far greater distance (and probably more warning, given the need for acceleration time).  And they're not using 1 bullet, they're using a massive barrage of bullets.  It's really not a similar case.

Also, I feel I should point out:  It really isn't any more likely that technomancers create sprites than that mages create spirits - pretty much all the indicators are that they exist before you compile them, and they go on existing after you dismiss them.  And there are no complex forms available to select that make a Sprite a perfect match to this.
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #27 on: <11-27-13/1933:04> »
Why I brought it up was proof of concept. A musket and 50cal browning machine gun are both firearms with year of technology between them. However, one is far better of a weapon then the other. And I could get a mini gun to have 15 rounds down range per action phase.

Rereading the text on sprites: the first lines says you create them. Now will give you that they have in parentheses another school of though that sprite might be like spirts. Machine sprites have optional complex form of autosoft any. So that should allow you to tailor them to the job as they one extra complex form per 3 force it has.

RHat

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« Reply #28 on: <11-27-13/2006:34> »
The whole idea of simply creating sprites isn't really compatible with everything else that's around about them.  Sprites exist in the Resonance Realms independently (perhaps even having some sort of society - in one place, they're even fighting a civil war), some of which show signs of significantly predating technomancers, otaku, or even the Sixth World (the Endless Archive, in particular, goes back to the invention of computational devices, and depending on the definition you're using that's very damn far).

Basically, certain streams - Cyberadepts and Dronomancers in partiucular - think of sprites as their creations, but overall they don't seem to be correct.  The default stream presented in SR4A is the Cyberadept stream, so the text tilts towards that.

And Autosoft any requires the autosoft to exist - even checking War, there is no autosoft for anything remotely close to this.
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MajorTwitch

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« Reply #29 on: <11-27-13/2123:06> »
What autosoft do you think would be needed? To me that default list seems to cover everything needed. There are rules for coding your own software is that only book stuff at a selected rating?