Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Previous Editions => Topic started by: Black Mamba on <10-11-10/2207:53>
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As the Karma Build system presented in Runners Companion is based of an attribute improvement multiplier of three, I wanted to know if the suggested 750 points was going to be increased to reflect the new multiplier of five.
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Unfortunately, no. The latest errata (which is in the German edition, and which I have heard is in the newer English ones) keeps the karma points the same but raises Attribute improvement to the new cost. Metatypes also have to pay karma equal to their build point cost now, instead of getting it for free. An ork, for example, would now cost 20 Karma points to play.
Karmagen still usually comes out slightly ahead of build points, but it is not nearly as high-powered as it was before. Some might welcome the change, but I actually liked the lavish, extravagant allocation of points. You could certainly min-max, then fill in your dump stats and pick up some low-level skills to round out the character. When I did it, though, I found I actually min-maxed less than I did when I had fewer points - and I could explore quirky concepts that would not have been plausible under the tighter build points.
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Thanks, Glyph. That's just what I need to know. ;D
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Unfortunately, no.
I don't agree it is unfortunate. Karma gen was never meant to be a superior char gen system, but an alternative char gen system. With the changes to attribute cost karma and bp gen systems got a lot closer to each other, so people in one group can actually choose if they want to stick with BP or Karma gen and it wont unbalance the group too much (karma is in most cases still slightly ahead of bp).
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As the Karma Build system presented in Runners Companion is based of an attribute improvement multiplier of three, I wanted to know if the suggested 750 points was going to be increased to reflect the new multiplier of five.
The 750 Karma System was based on Attributes cost x5 !
with the old Cost x3 it is/was Imbalanced (It should've been 500-600 Karma then)
with a balanced Dance
Medicineman
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with the old Cost x3 it is/was Imbalanced (It should've been 500-600 Karma then)
How was it imbalanced, you should never ever use more then one chargen system for gaming group and that is just as true with the old karmagen as it is with the errated.
The chargen systems aren't ment to be mixed, so i can't see how can you use that term.
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with the old Cost x3 it is/was Imbalanced (It should've been 500-600 Karma then)
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The chargen systems aren't ment to be mixed, so i can't see how can you use that term.
They were'nt ?
I'm a little surprised.
I use Karma as well as the BP-System for my Chars and a lot of GMs I know (from conventions and from Forums) don't mind a Group with mixed Chars (if they're Att x5 Karma Chars)
Oh,well....If you don't mix it,then they shure aren't imbalanced .but If you compare the two systems (the 750 Karma with Att x3 and the BP System) the Karma System creates far bigger Chars
with a bigger Dance
Medicineman
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I would recommend not mixing the two, myself. Even with the changes, karmagen still usually comes out significantly ahead of build points - and I usually buy the same number of knowledge skills that I would normally get for "free" with build points. Even doing that, I come out ahead most of the time, so someone skimping on knowledge skills would come out even further ahead.
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With my groups, I actually had the cost for attributes be x5, and reduced the starting Karma to about 700, in addition to making people pay the BP cost for meta type. We found that at about 650 Karma and x5 att multiplier you get just about exactly the same "level/power" as with a 400bp character, give or take. Has anyone else done some math / number crunching to try to compare the 2 gen methods?
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I did some with the old (Att x3 and nor Racial Cost) Rules when I converted my SR3 to SR4 Chars
750 Karma was equivalent to 500-550 BP Chars
Than I converted them again with the new SR4A Rules (Att x5 and incl Racial Cost)
they were at about the same level (I have 2 Chars which came out better as 420 BP than as 750 Karma)
The "disadvantage" of the BP Rules is that it "promotes" Min/Maxing (Hey thats no Problem for Me ;D , I'm a Min/Maxer at Heart and my Groups/GMs don't Mind at all, but It could be troublesome for some Groups/GMs )
with a Min/Maxed Dance
Medicineman
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I've been playing a bit with the two character build methods and I think it's almost even if we don't try to exploit the system.
As GM I accept both methods at the same table and I prefer Karma build. I think "free" knowledge skills miss in that system because knowledge skills are really important and often neglected.
As player, my character is better using the build point system, I'm about 40 karma better.
With Karma build, we can create a character that worth "785" build points max. (but it's not really playable)
With Build Point system, we can make a character that worth "1085" karma. Maybe more but it's not easy to calculate. (unplayable)
Conclusion : we can exploit the system but the "best" character is not made with the best ratio "BP/Karma".
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I still don't like how special attributes like edge and magic/resonance fall under the "half karma" attribute cap.
It massively favors non-humans and still leaves any strongly magical/lucky character as a half-spastic.
BREAKING NEWS: Hmm, running a couple awakened tests, if you keep from many soft-maxed stats with karmagen, then you can build a character with equivalent attributes using 375 karma (all attributes) and 200BP (core attributes). Just with karma, you've got plenty of spending left to do, while with BP you've already burned a quarter of your remaining 200BP on special attributes.
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...
With Karma build, we can create a character that worth "785" build points max. (but it's not really playable)
With Build Point system, we can make a character that worth "1085" karma. Maybe more but it's not easy to calculate. (unplayable)
Conclusion : we can exploit the system but the "best" character is not made with the best ratio "BP/Karma".
I would really like to see a 400 BP build that equates to a 1000+ Karma build. that's sounds slightly exaggerated imo.
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The way to do it is to spend build points with the best ratio. As I said, it's not a playable character. Minimum ratio is 1 BP for 2 Karma. To make better, the only way is to spend points in attributes when ratio is better than 1 for 2.
I didn't keep the sheet but it was a troll (of course, even if meta-type cost is "lost" because ratio is 1 for 1) with 13 strength and 5 intuition. (there was another solution with same result with 12 str)
The best I've done for a real characters optimised for the system is around 130 Karma better using my actual character concept but optimized for BP system.
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I would really like to see a 400 BP build that equates to a 1000+ Karma build. that's sounds slightly exaggerated imo.
Heh, i just build a fomori build that would have been 900+ karma, except it wasn't even a legal build in karmagen as my attributes would have cost 500+ karma. :o
With nostrefatu i can get into 1100+ karma, but once again im not even allowed to get the stats that build has in karmagen 600+ karma in stats.
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I'd still like to see the build. I mean, you can only spend 200 BP on attributes, so... if it's not a legal build for karma then it most likely isn't legal for BP either.
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Ultimate Karma Sink - Credit: Karoline of DS
This character is made with 400 bp and is worth 1323 karma.
Bear Shifter: 80/80
Bod:16 95/500 Str:13 60/315 Log:1 0 Edge:1 0
Agi:1 0 Cha:1 0 Wil:1 0 Ess:6
Rea:1 0 Int:5 40/70 Ini:2 Magic:5(4) 40/70
Qualities:0/0
Exceptional Attribute (Body) 20
Adept 5
Surge 10
*Metagenic Improvement (Body) (20)
*Fuzzybutt (-10)
In Debt 6 -30
SINner -5
Skills:
Blades 6 24/44
Knowledge Skills:
Local Geography 6 Free/22
Local Wildlife 6 Free/22
Local Plants 6 Free/22
Contacts:2/4
Some guy 1/1
Powers:
Various Powers.
Binding:
Weapon Focus F2 2/10
Weapon Focus F2 2/10
Power Focus F2 2/16
Centering Focus F2 2/12
Masking Focus F2 2/12
Equipment: 49/98
Genetic Optimization (Body) 45000
Genetic Optimization (Str) 45000
Weapon Focus (Axe) F2 20000
Weapon Focus (Axe) F2 20000
Power Focus F2 50000
Centering Focus F2 30000
Masking Focus F2 20000
Other Stuff 45000
For the reverse...
Okay, so looks like the best you can do is 750 BP from a 750 Karma character. I couldn't find anything that cost more BP than Karma. Start with human, raise all stats to 2, then grab every skill in the book (and chemistry and arcana, but no magic or resonance skills) which is 60 skills, and raise them all to 2 and spec them (minus exotic weapon and exotic vehicle), that brings you up to 676 karma spent at 1:1 ratio. Then you just grab more exotic weapon and vehicle skills at 2 until you reach 750. Drop a spec somewhere if you need to even the stuff out for 750 points.
Doesn't play well at all of course, but you do have a truest of true jack of all trades, with a DP of 4 in everything and alot of 6s floating around from specs.
I'm sure you could easily hit around 600 BP from a character that you'd actually play.
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I'd still like to see the build. I mean, you can only spend 200 BP on attributes, so... if it's not a legal build for karma then it most likely isn't legal for BP either.
Nostrefatu with Exceptional Attribute (Logic), Surge 1 and Metagenic Improvement (Logic) + 30 BP worth of negative qualities
Charisma 7
Intuition 8
Logic 10
Willpower 5
= 200 BP
Edge 6
=620 karma for the stats, except your not actually allowed to spend nearly that
Add in the 300karma for being Nostrefatu and we're allready in 920 karm and haven't yeat bought the ton of knowledge skills the BP version gets for free.
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Okay, so looks like the best you can do is 750 BP from a 750 Karma character. I couldn't find anything that cost more BP than Karma. Start with human, raise all stats to 2, then grab every skill in the book (and chemistry and arcana, but no magic or resonance skills) which is 60 skills, and raise them all to 2 and spec them (minus exotic weapon and exotic vehicle), that brings you up to 676 karma spent at 1:1 ratio. Then you just grab more exotic weapon and vehicle skills at 2 until you reach 750. Drop a spec somewhere if you need to even the stuff out for 750 points.
Doesn't play well at all of course, but you do have a truest of true jack of all trades, with a DP of 4 in everything and alot of 6s floating around from specs.
I'm sure you could easily hit around 600 BP from a character that you'd actually play.
The best ratio for Karma is 1BP for 1Karma, but don't forget 35 points of disadvantages that give you 70 karma. (minus 37 karma free skills you loose in karma gen if you want to consider that point)
For previous examples, you can make better because for example willpower 5 make you loose points and it' the same with all skills that are under 1BP for 2 karma ratio.
I only compute max bp/karma ratio for classics meta-types so it's probably possible to make better with others. My example with a troll is legal in term of rules and use only 175 BP in attributes :
40 BP for troll (40 karma)
str 13 cost 85 BP or 350 karma (only maxed attribute)
body 10 cost 50 BP or 200 karma
int 5 is over 1bp for 2 karma ratio because of free knowledge skills (40 BP for 70 karma)
free skills give you 55 karma (1 skill at 6, 3 skills at 4)
gear 50 points or 100 karma
135 BP remaining in contacts for example (270 karma)
Advantages 30 points (excep attr 20. grim 10)
Disadvantages 30 points
Total 400 BP or 1085 karma.
It's possible to compare karma or bp cost but impossible to know if a character is better or not because "points" are nor representative of character effectiveness. The example I give is not a playable character, just a thing about I was curious. There's no point in term of gaming to know what is the maximum ratio you can make but it can give you hints to make your own idea about karma/BP systems.
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is there a place where we can download the German Errata ?
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Sorry if it's impolite to necro this, but I'm poking around with Karma Gen. It did seem kind of odd that I went from scraping for points to Doc Savage, and now I hear that there's errata adjusting it.
Where is the errata, I didn't see any on the Catalyst Game Labs site?
Then again, I'm not sure how loudly I should complain; 9 Logic is only 132 points. Even if I use x5, it's only 220 points. ;D
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I have a link to the post describing it in my signature.
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Thank you. I guess I'll just make a character both ways. ;D
EDIT: Actually, one more question. Non-Errata'd, does this attribute block look okay? Did I mess up my spreadsheet or something, because this is Doc Savage.
For an Elf, the limit should be (750/2)+30*2=435. I have my mentat attribute/gear spread.
Abilities 435
STR 2 6
BOD 4 27
AGI 5 42
REC 5 42
INT 5 42
LOG 9 132
WIL 5 42
CHA 7 81
EDGE 4 27
MAGIC/RESONANCE 3 15
Initiative 10 1P
EDIT EDIT:
And what I believe is the German Errata'd version.
Abilities 434
STR 2 10
BOD 3 25
AGI 3 25
REC 3 25
INT 4 45
LOG 9 220
WIL 4 45
CHA 3 25
EDGE 2 10
MAGIC/RESONANCE 3 25
Initiative 7 1P
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You forgot the beginning ranges Elves have to Agility (2-7) and Charisma (3-8). The natural attribute cap on Logic is 6 for elves.
(Non errata)
AGI 5 {36}
CHA 7 {66}
LOG 6 (Hardcapped) {60}
(Errata)
AGI 3 {15}
CHA 3 {0}
LOG 6 (Hardcapped) {100}
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I have SURGE's Metagenic Improvement, Exceptional Attribute, and Genetic Optimization. My natural limit is 9, and my augmented limit (saving up for Cerebral Boosters and more Psyche) is 13. Which would make them as smart as a non-great dragon can be. 8)
But with that in mind, does it look like I have the right numbers? It just seems like I have absurdly high stats across the board.
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I missed those traits.
Agility/Charisma and total numbers aside, then your spread would be correct.
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Wow. That is...something. Apparently I'm a fan of Karma Generation now.
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You get more bang for your buck with more well rounded characters in Karma-gen. I am huge fan of Karma-gen. Even using the german errata.
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I...don't really see this as well rounded. More like a huge spike and then above average everywhere else.
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if you try and do the normal min/maxing that is done in BP. You get a character that is subpar compared to BP. (x5 attributes and paying for your race with karma-gen.)
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I haven't really had that experience. I fiddle around with character creations a lot, and most of my optimized ones come out worth more than 400 BP. And that includes paying for the knowledge skills that I would normally get for free under BP. Generally, a min-maxed karmagen character will work out to be the equivalent of 450 BP, give or take, while a non min-maxed karmagen character will work out to be quite a bit higher than that.
Karmagen doesn't so much punish min-maxing, as reward generalization (because low skills and Attributes cost a lot less). Well, kind of rewards it. Dice pools are still one of the main gauges of character effectiveness, so characters that are spread out a lot are still disadvantaged, even if their character can have a lot more of these low-rated skills than they would in BP.
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Having some low level skills help round out the character. Bp characters have very few skills often have major holes in them.
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I'm not saying low level skills aren't good. I take skills for my specialty higher, but still pick up some other skills to round out the character. Lopsided BP characters happen when players concentrate on being the best at a narrow role, at the expense of being pretty weak and useless outside of that one area. Karmagen discourages hyper-specialization with a bit of a carrot and stick approach (exponential cost increases for higher stats, but more overall points to play with). But BP does similar things (higher cost to hard-max a skill, limits on points that can be spent on Attributes or how many high-rated skills you can have), with mixed effectiveness.