[UnLimiTeD]

Well, regenerating creatures can accept deltaware.
But other ware is "spit out", so it's not just about the implantation.

[Whiskeyjack]

But for the 4 points of agility what did you need to give up?

20 karma, and a C in resources (whereas before you may have taken a D, for example).  That could raise your attributes a level (4 more attribute points), or your metatype a level (3 more edge, or 3 more magic), or etc.

So 4 agility gives you 4 more dice for a lot of tests, there is also an enormous opportunity cost there.

This.  And it's not like you don't have other really good options to pick from after the first two levels of Muscle Toner.  Muscle Augmentation for Melee Adepts.  Orthoskin and Bone Density, Poison Claws, Tailored Phermones for Social Adepts, Cerebellum Boost.  Lots of stuff to grab that is doing you good that you don't have to pay out another 10 Karma for.   

Sure, but if you're going for narrow competency (which is what adepts excel at) then it's definitely worth it. Even more worth it to end up with 2 Essence worth of implants for 1 Essence worth of cost.

[zarzak]

But for the 4 points of agility what did you need to give up?

20 karma, and a C in resources (whereas before you may have taken a D, for example).  That could raise your attributes a level (4 more attribute points), or your metatype a level (3 more edge, or 3 more magic), or etc.

So 4 agility gives you 4 more dice for a lot of tests, there is also an enormous opportunity cost there.

This.  And it's not like you don't have other really good options to pick from after the first two levels of Muscle Toner.  Muscle Augmentation for Melee Adepts.  Orthoskin and Bone Density, Poison Claws, Tailored Phermones for Social Adepts, Cerebellum Boost.  Lots of stuff to grab that is doing you good that you don't have to pay out another 10 Karma for.   

Sure, but if you're going for narrow competency (which is what adepts excel at) then it's definitely worth it. Even more worth it to end up with 2 Essence worth of implants for 1 Essence worth of cost.

The problem I see there is that you're sacrificing your stats to do so in some fashion, or your edge, or your skills, or some other aspect for a relatively minimal gain, because of the huge investment in nuyen you need to put in that takes away from other places in the build

[Triskavanski]

It depends on what you consider to be a relatively minimal gain.

For me, being able to fit a bunch of bioware without losing that point of essence is pretty big. Especially with things related to health spells or having that new exceptional healing quality.

Now here's a few question..

Does it stack with Compatibility? Or function with Lighting Reflexes?

[UnLimiTeD]

The problem I see there is that you're sacrificing your stats to do so in some fashion, or your edge, or your skills, or some other aspect for a relatively minimal gain, because of the huge investment in nuyen you need to put in that takes away from other places in the build

Well, you're sacrificing 4 Attribute points to gain enough nuyen to get 3-4 attribute points, and points to raise your most important attribute above it's normal limit, to boot.
Meaning you save karma getting those other attributes up some time later.
It might be a disadvantage at the start, but it pays dividends later.

[Hobbes]

It depends on what you consider to be a relatively minimal gain.

For me, being able to fit a bunch of bioware without losing that point of essence is pretty big. Especially with things related to health spells or having that new exceptional healing quality.

Now here's a few question..

Does it stack with Compatibility? Or function with Lighting Reflexes?

Compatibility yes, Lightning Reflexes no.  The Bioware you're installing follows all other rules.  So, yes with Biocompatibility (Bioware), you can get 1.1 essence worth of stuffs.  All for the low, low cost of 15 Karma. 

[zarzak]

The problem I see there is that you're sacrificing your stats to do so in some fashion, or your edge, or your skills, or some other aspect for a relatively minimal gain, because of the huge investment in nuyen you need to put in that takes away from other places in the build

Well, you're sacrificing 4 Attribute points to gain enough nuyen to get 3-4 attribute points, and points to raise your most important attribute above it's normal limit, to boot.
Meaning you save karma getting those other attributes up some time later.
It might be a disadvantage at the start, but it pays dividends later.

I don't know about that.  I've made a few sample characters, and here is how it generally works out:

Bioware costs to get a full essence of good bioware: roughly 120k nuyen, or the difference between priority B and priority C resources.
Cost of the quality: 10 karma

Now for a priority worth of resources and 10 karma you get the following (as an example);
+2 strength (augmented) (important, as raising augmented attribute points is much easier than normal attribute points)
+2 agility (augmented) (important, as raising augmented attribute points is much easier than normal attribute points)
+1 to your primary combat skill (reflex recorder)
something else, say a sleep recorder

Now consider the trade-off:
You can up your attributes a level, for 4 more attribute points.
If you're taking a B in resources you likely took a hit in your attributes somewhere.  If you're a troll, for example, you'll likely be able to raise agility by 1 and various initiative attributes by 3.  You'd also have an extra 10 nuyen (which translates to 20k, which can get you that reflex recorder if you want, or whatever).

You can raise, say, your magic by a level.  For example, if you're an adept you could go from magic D to magic C.  Assuming you put your special points into magic, this would essentially get you 2 additional points of edge, 2 skill points to use, and the karma (with your additional edge, you could get Revel in Murder, for example).

You can raise, say, your skills by a level.  If you were an elf, for example, you may have had skills D.  So going to skills C would net you 8 more skill points and 2 group points.  And you'd have the 10 karma.

If you're building properly, a lot of these things would take significant karma expenditures to get ... so its not so simple, imho.

[zarzak]

It depends on what you consider to be a relatively minimal gain.

For me, being able to fit a bunch of bioware without losing that point of essence is pretty big. Especially with things related to health spells or having that new exceptional healing quality.

Now here's a few question..

Does it stack with Compatibility? Or function with Lighting Reflexes?

Compatibility yes, Lightning Reflexes no.  The Bioware you're installing follows all other rules.  So, yes with Biocompatibility (Bioware), you can get 1.1 essence worth of stuffs.  All for the low, low cost of 15 Karma.

And at least 1 priority level in resources - don't forget about that. :p

[Triskavanski]

Yeah the biocompatability might not be too worth it.. But a lot of the bioware has 0.1 or less essence cost.

With a Techno, I'm thinking of going something along the lines of a

6 Nephritic Screens
A sleep regulator
Neuro-retention enhancer
Reception enhancer - I can no longer suffer a -2 for being distracted in AR
If i did take the biocompatability, I'd also be able to fit in one rank of the enhanced reflexes. Could also just drop the neuro-retention enhancer and just pick up the quality with karma. It would be about the same thing.

Or you know, I could just have a stock of drugs on hand, whenever I needed it. I could then use them for attribute enhancements. As per the song.

[Hobbes]

Oh, and to answer the original question.  If you're building a Samurai with Resources A and you're looking at things like Used Wired Reflexes 2, Used Muscle Replacement 3, or Move By Wire.  Something that is taking a big bite of Essence and is "only" costing you 100kish.  Then 1 Essence worth of Bioware for 10 Karma starts to look better.  Example this set up here:

== Cyberware/Bioware ==
Active Hardwires Rating 5  - Alpha
Cerebellum Booster Rating 1
Datajack - Alpha
Muscle Replacement Rating 3 - Used
Reaction Enhancers Rating 3 - Used
Reakt
Smartlink - Alpha
Synaptic Acceleration

With Biocompatibility (Cyber) I've got 0.24 essence and over 50k Nuyen still to burn.  Move the Cerebellum Booster to the Prototype, brings it to .44 Essence left, and with 50k that's Orthoskin and Bone Augments (or whatever).  Is it worth 10 Karma?  Maybe. 

But yes, in order to make Prototype Transhuman "worth it" for mechanical reasons you need to already have a pile of cash to spend and place a moderate value on that 1 point of Essence.  Either you're augmented to hell and gone already and this is how you cram in more, or you're trying to fit in a few key pieces of Bioware without costing Essence.  A technomancer willing to take on a high level of "In Debit" for example. 

Or for RP reasons you really want to play a Catgirl Adept but don't want to spend the Magic on Severe Biosculpting. 

Oh, also, pretty much every Prime Runner ever.         

Also, Way of the Burnout, Biocompatible (Cyber), and Prototype Transhuman for the "Give me all the Augments!" build. 

[zarzak]

With Biocompatibility (Cyber) I've got 0.24 essence and over 50k Nuyen still to burn.  Move the Cerebellum Booster to the Prototype, brings it to .44 Essence left, and with 50k that's Orthoskin and Bone Augments (or whatever).  Is it worth 10 Karma?  Maybe. 

But yes, in order to make Prototype Transhuman "worth it" for mechanical reasons you need to already have a pile of cash to spend and place a moderate value on that 1 point of Essence.  Either you're augmented to hell and gone already and this is how you cram in more, or you're trying to fit in a few key pieces of Bioware without costing Essence.  A technomancer willing to take on a high level of "In Debit" for example. 

Or for RP reasons you really want to play a Catgirl Adept but don't want to spend the Magic on Severe Biosculpting. 

Oh, also, pretty much every Prime Runner ever.         

Also, Way of the Burnout, Biocompatible (Cyber), and Prototype Transhuman for the "Give me all the Augments!" build.

Biocompatability is only 5 karma, and is definitely worth it for several types of characters; no argument there.

For prototype transhuman ... its not so straight forward.  Unless you're prime runner.  But thats a totally different ballgame, and not really relevant to the discussion (prime runner changes a lot of things ... :p ).

For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.

For adepts I find that a mentor spirit generally gives much stronger mechanical benefits than way of the burnout + prototype transhuman (I've been trying really hard to make it work).

Biocompatability is only 'worth' it if you're doing a ton of augments (preferably of the used variety).  Its niche, but does have definite uses.

[adzling]

It's a must have for a social adept IMHO.
There's very little that boosts social skills beyond tailored pheromones and cool resolve and auth tone and neither of those adds 3 to your social limit like tailored does.

Also if your adept build was going to take bio ware anyway it's a lot better than way of the burnout.

I have build that uses proto trans, biocompatibility, mentor, joat and agile defender to good effect to make a pistol adept/ face.
I'll post it later.

[Whiskeyjack]

It's a must have for a social adept IMHO.

It's easy enough to hit a Social Limit of 11 with no gear except Mortimer's from R&G and no PP devoted to improving social skills, and a dice pool of 18-22 with First Impression and said Mortimer's as well.

One starts to wonder whether increasing dice pool or Limit at that point is really worth the investment versus getting something else. Most of the time, I'd say probably not.

[adzling]

It depends if you are optimizing for commanding voice.
If so you can never have enough dice (Yu want to affect groups not just a single person, right?).

It's also a way to generate enough extra points for social skills that your actual social skills don't have to be high, saving those skill points for other things.

[Hobbes]

For normal builds you can't take way of the burnout, biocompatibility and prototype transhuman out of chargen, as thats 30 karma worth of qualities ... you're limited to 25.

Technically Ways aren't qualities, per dev statements.  Or don't count as qualities for somethings.  Hopefully there is some errata someday clearing up precisely what that means.  Costs post chargen or if it counts as part of the 25 point limit.  But, yes can't have all three, not that you'd have the Nuyen.