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Spells and Edge

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« on: <08-29-17/1807:20> »
This is more of a sanity check than a question, but when a mage casts a Force 1 spell, Pushes the limit with edge, and gets several hits more than their Magic the drain will likely just be 2P? (presuming drain value is less than F + 1)

Kesendeja

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« Reply #1 on: <08-29-17/1824:41> »
Pretty much with my reading of the rules. But they are spending edge, which is a valuable resource.

Marcus

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« Reply #2 on: <08-29-17/1932:06> »
Yeah wording on push the limit is pretty clear. Ignore ANY limit.
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firebug

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« Reply #3 on: <08-29-17/2002:26> »
This is more of a sanity check than a question, but when a mage casts a Force 1 spell, Pushes the limit with edge, and gets several hits more than their Magic the drain will likely just be 2P? (presuming drain value is less than F + 1)

This strategy (or by using reagents) is popular with people who use a lot of Illusion spells (as they all based on Net Hits as opposed to Force to determine effectiveness, usually) so that they can sustain them with a very cheap R1 Sustaining Focus (Illusion) and to make the spells almost impossible to notice with a Perception test.  The downside is small; if you're fighting a magician, they will be able to dispell it easily.  That's usually not an issue with Illusion though, because if a mage assenses you and decides to dispell you, you're found out already.
« Last Edit: <08-29-17/2005:04> by firebug »
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SunRunner

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« Reply #4 on: <08-30-17/0913:38> »
There is also the slight disadvantage that they have to burn drams of reagents every time they cast a spell using this method so they are burning nuyen, grated the cost is small and if they dont cast too many spells probably wont exceed what the street sam is gonna burn up putting various specialty rounds down range. $20 a dram means setting a limit of 6 is $120 per spell cast. If the GM actually tracks or at least enforces the PC needing to properly track his reagent expenses then that will add up over time. It also opens doors for the GM to mess with the PC if hes constantly exploiting the I have 5 Force 1 illusion sustaining foci as the talismongers can only harvest reagents so fast and it can be possible to use up the local reagent supply thus either driving up the price drastically as talismongers have to start importing the reagents and all the local mages start competing to out bid each other to ensure they have the reagents they need. You also can get into the mage starting to be easier to track since hes single handedly depleted the local reagent supply, people will start noticing and they will start wondering what hes up to that is consuming so many reagents.

ShadowcatX

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« Reply #5 on: <08-30-17/0924:46> »
There is also the slight disadvantage that they have to burn drams of reagents every time they cast a spell using this method so they are burning nuyen, grated the cost is small and if they dont cast too many spells probably wont exceed what the street sam is gonna burn up putting various specialty rounds down range. $20 a dram means setting a limit of 6 is $120 per spell cast. If the GM actually tracks or at least enforces the PC needing to properly track his reagent expenses then that will add up over time. It also opens doors for the GM to mess with the PC if hes constantly exploiting the I have 5 Force 1 illusion sustaining foci as the talismongers can only harvest reagents so fast and it can be possible to use up the local reagent supply thus either driving up the price drastically as talismongers have to start importing the reagents and all the local mages start competing to out bid each other to ensure they have the reagents they need. You also can get into the mage starting to be easier to track since hes single handedly depleted the local reagent supply, people will start noticing and they will start wondering what hes up to that is consuming so many reagents.

One could make the "if the street samurai uses too many bullets, it will drive the price of bullets up" but no one ever does. Seems people only ever want to screw over mages. Odd, that.

But on your whole "the cost adds up fast" the difference between a force 4 sustaining foci and a force 1 sustaining foci is 12,000 nuyen. That is 600 drams. And then there is the karma difference in binding a force 4 foci vs. a force 1 foci, which is 6 karma, and at 2,000 a karma, that's another 12,000 nuyen or 600 drams. So the price difference is enough for 1200 drams. That's enough for 300 spells where a mage raises the limit from 1 to 4. And of course, then there's the fact that a force 4 foci is a big step towards foci addiction.

On the flip side, binding a single force 6 spirit takes 150 drams. Binding spirits is something mages are expected (by the setting) to be able to do on at least a somewhat regular basis. This takes away from your "mages burn through so many drams casting spells talismongers can't keep up" idea.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #6 on: <08-30-17/0928:09> »
That strategy goes out of the window everytime there is even a slight amount of background count. F3 is usually the minimum I use in games.

If you are sustaining those spells all day anyway you can use other methods than reagents to increase the limit (Special Work Environment, Practice Practice Quality, Leadership).

FA also introduced a 10 karma quality for illusionists that allows you to sustain an illusion spell up to your magic in force without penalty.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #7 on: <08-30-17/1017:07> »
While the rules on background count are terrible it does stop the low force brigade.

SunRunner

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« Reply #8 on: <08-30-17/1329:49> »
Funny I play a Mage  ;D or a mystic adept most of the time. This was more about how GMs deal with people who are abusing things in game. Also there are factories that can make more bullets in 1 day then the street Sam can shoot off in a month of continuous non stop 24/7 gun fire. Reagents are a some what limited quantity especially if you factor traditions into it as reagents from another tradition are only half as effective so it starts taking you 12 drams instead of six cause your using off brand reagents. Also its not that you cant find them its at what price and at what risk of drawing notice. I can go to Wall Mart and buy a box of .556 ammo but if I start asking the cashier for 50,000 rounds of .556 I guarantee some one is making a phone call to some one in law enforcement. I am also pretty sure they wont have that much in the store period.

Also in certain circumstances I have done similar things to my street sams. Go looking for bullets when your some where in the Amazonia Bush cause your pulling a hit on some Azlanter fire base. Sorry the bush village you found only has about 100 APDS rounds for you assault rifle Mr. Sam and they are asking you for 4k nuyen for them....

Senko

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« Reply #9 on: <08-30-17/1600:04> »
I'm pretty sure buying 600 radical drams of your tradition is going to raise fewer eyebrows than a hundred ADPS bullets for the street sam's assault rifle. Not to mention that Drams are a renewable resource as long as the farming's spread out and sites can be reharvested every couple of day's safely. Then there's at least one spell to recharge reagents if I recall right. Not to mention if your traditions reagent is semi precious stones what happens when you refine 10 of those into a more powerful reagent. Are you just concentrating the mana into one or are you fusing them into a bigger stone? More of an issue I'd say than how many you're buying. All in all I can't see if being an issue for a PC to be buying them unless as Shadowcat said a lot of people see "magic" and instantly start griping its overpowered and needs to be "balanced" (nerfed) regardless of whether or not the melee guy's can actually do more damage consistently and safely.

Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #10 on: <08-30-17/1728:34> »
I generally use the availability numbers to gauge available supply. Reagents should be in decent supply imo. But, you buy them in numbers of one. So 600 would be like buying 6000 rounds of ammo. And in my games at least 6000 rounds of normal ammo might be hard to dig up.

Senko

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« Reply #11 on: <08-31-17/0500:15> »
Interesting the problem is that seems a bit low. I'm pretty sure the starting mage packages in run faster (one book anyway) by default give you 50 reagents would by your method would be 500 rounds of ammo which is rather a lot. Especially when some builds can go through them almost as fast as bullets. Maybe drop it to 5 or 2.5? You'd also need to consider the type of reagent e.g. radical or refined (we wont go into whether shaman tradition reagents are more or less available in a city too much book keeping for most groups). They're made by a 10 to 1 process so 1 refined (I think) is worth 10 normal and 1 radical (again I think) is worth 10 refined or 100 normal ones. So 1 radical reagent would at 10 to 1 be worth around 1,000 bullets for one which doesn't match up either for fun or for cost and restrction. If you go 2.5 though it'd be . . .

Reagent = 2.5 bullets.
Refined Reagent = 10 normal reagents or 25 bullets.
Radical Reagent = 10 refined reagents, 100 normal reagents or 250 bullets.

Which to me seems a bit better. Still expensive but not as restrictive to get ahold for magic characters.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #12 on: <08-31-17/0521:27> »
Tainted Reagents (the cheap ones for 20 Nuyen) have an Availability of - which means you can buy as much of them as you want, probably even at a Stuffer Shack.
They aren't restricted or controlled in any way (in contrast to bullets), so there is no reason to assume that getting them in bulk is any more suspicious than if a builder buys a van full of timber.
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Shinobi Killfist

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« Reply #13 on: <08-31-17/1131:10> »
Do they have bulk buy places for talismonger. A Costco type place?  12k in reagents for every tradition a store carries seems pretty extreme. Drams are tiny so I suspect they'd have the room but my experience in retail would suggest they wouldn't carry that much on hand. They would be willing to special order it for you if they have customer service. I kind of ignore the rules on how they are collected as I assume that's from a PC perspective. If shops ran like that you'd be lucky to buy 10. It doesn't match the avail -  but hey tasers are avail - so that alone won't explain stock.

Maybe 10 to 1 is a bit much but I'm not sure by how much. While a made archetype may start with 50 most start with 0. A gun based archetype starting with 500 rounds wouldn't shock me. They are avail - instead of normal ammos 3 and they are not restricted so I guess a bit more common than bormak bullets. So maybe 1 dram is like 1/2 a ammo buy so 5 to 1 and 600 drams would be like 3000 rounds.

I'd say assuming your ids are good enough you can just go to a legit magic store you could order them. But it may take time to pull together.

Magical active types are a small % of population, mages who can use reagents a even smaller %. Mages who while they can routinely use them even smaller.  I just don't see stores keeping those kind of supplies on hand for the number of customers they'd have.

Hey there are availability rules so you can just go by those. But at certain points systems don't make sense. Too me 600 drams doesn't jive with the - availability. Even readily available items have limits. That's just my personal take not a rules one. By the rules you could buy 5,000,000 drams online if you had the cash.

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« Reply #14 on: <08-31-17/1223:22> »
Sure. You could probably order 1000 pounds of fertilizer online today too. Just don't be surprised if you wake up to a search warrant.