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Extended Test Thresholds [SR6]

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UhhDabin

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« on: <11-07-21/0247:56> »
In my last session we had an extended test come up and we're still learning the system so we took the time to open the book and do it right but I cant for the life of me figure out how a threshold for an extended test is determined. I've opened up the core rulebook to page 36, read it over numerous times to look for anything I missed. The Threshold guide indicates that a threshold may be between 1 and 7 but then the extended test example uses 9 as a threshold. I understand that there are rules for changing the interval, and that this can be used to make a test more difficult, but how was a threshold of 9 even conjured to begin with? Are there separate rules for determining an extended test threshold or is the community just as lost as I am on this one?

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <11-07-21/0443:09> »
In this edition you have 3 different types of tests (or 4).

Simple Test. You roll once and compare your hits against a threshold (using Threshold guidelines listed in the book)

Opposed Test. You roll once and your opponent roll once. You compare hits (opponents hits act as your threshold).

Extended Test. You roll once. Count your hits. Deduct one dice from your pool and roll again (after the set interval period). Until you either reach the threshold or you run out of dice (or you run out of time and is forced to abort the test). This threshold is typically a lot higher (since you are allowed to roll several times).

(and in the matrix chapter there is also a 4th type of test for matrix search and probe where you have the option to roll again in order to add to your total amount of hits and where you deduct one dice each time you roll and where each roll have an interval similar to Extended Test but where the entire test can be successful if you want after just one hit but where the entire test will also immediately fail if any of your repeated tests fail similar to a Simple Test).

As you already noted, Extended Threshold guidelines seem to be are missing in SR6. Below you can find tables from SR5 (but in SR5 dice pools are typically a lot bigger so values might have to be reduced a bit to better fit SR6).

Code: [Select]
difficulty threshold
Easy           6
Average       12
Hard          18
Very Hard     24
Extreme       30+

The extended test interval table was added in the Aug 2019 errata;

Code: [Select]
task        time interval
Fast         1 Combat Turn
Quick        1 minute
Short       10 minutes
Average     30 minutes
Long         1 hour
Consuming    1 day
Exhaustive   1 week
Mammoth      1 month
« Last Edit: <11-07-21/0505:42> by Xenon »

autXautY

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« Reply #2 on: <11-07-21/1605:09> »
In terms of ratios to simple tests:
Descriptive DifficultySimple Difficulty. Dice to get that many average hits on a simple test. Average hits from that number of dice in an extended test.
Simple132
More Complex than Simple  267
Normal starting point3915
More difficult41226
Tricky51540
Elite61857
Standing out among elite72177

Note that the total number of successes you average across an extended test grows roughly with the square of your dice pool.
Additionally, since at the higher levels you can roll more times before running out of dice, if the time is limited this chart is inaccurate - if you only have time for 3 rolls, the average number of successes is 3*(simple task)-1

Xenon

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« Reply #3 on: <11-08-21/0223:51> »
For completion sake, Simple Test table from SR5:

Code: [Select]
difficulty threshold
Easy         1
Average      2
Hard         4
Very Hard    6
Extreme     8–10

As you already noted, for Extended Tests Average hits (as well when using the Buying Hits optional rule) mathematically grows roughly with the square of the dice pool which mean that Simple Tests in SR5 typically required smaller Dice Pools compared to Extended Tests for lower Difficulty Level and higher Dice Pools compared to Extended Tests for higher Difficulty Levels.

This might actually be intended if you also include Edge in the equation. As Edge only affect one single instance in an Extended Test, Edge will have a much higher impact on lower Difficulty Level Extended Tests than higher Difficulty Levels Extended Tests.

If we were to assume that it was intended then this is how an Extended Threshold table could look like in SR6:

Code: [Select]
Descriptive Difficulty    Simple Extended
Simple                       1      6
More Complex than Simple     2     12
Normal starting point        3     15
More difficult               4     18
Tricky                       5     21
Elite                        6     24
Standing out among elite     7     27

Having said that, most Extended Tests examples in the book have a Threshold of 4, 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 (and one case of 20) which seem to suggest that the table should start with a lower Threshold than 6 for an Extended Test of "Simple" Difficulty Level.
« Last Edit: <11-08-21/0232:01> by Xenon »

Stainless Steel Devil Rat

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« Reply #4 on: <11-08-21/1041:50> »
My personal recommendation is to treat the suggested thresholds on pg. 36 as only applying to success tests, and multiply the value corresponding with a stated level of challenge x3 for extended tests.

RPG mechanics exist to give structure and consistency to the game world, true, but at the end of the day, you’re fighting dragons with algebra and random number generators.