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Spellblades Ver2

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« on: <03-01-16/1308:36> »
In this thread the spell Spellblades was discussed (somewhat) and inquired about.

My main concerns are that (aside from dispelling) there is no "need" for a spellcasting test, there is no listed spell type (combat, illusion, etc), and there is no AP value listed.

From what I can find, there are no Indirect Mana combat spells. If there were this could be simpler. Per core indirect combat spells are soaked with Body+Armor from DV Force+net with AP being -(Force). Not only do mana spells ignore Armor (thus making AP irrelevant), but it is also resisted with Willpower not Body. If we were to interpret Spellblades to be a combat spell, the physical version would have an AP (of -Force), however the mana version becomes a mess to implement.

As a manipulation spell, Spellblades "[has] a Damage Value equal to their Force (unaltered by hits on the Spellcasting test) and 0 AP. The damage is resisted with Body + Armor." (Core 292pg). We get a value for its AP. Unfortunately the mana version "bypass[es] armor" making the Manipulation resistance test confusing (Hard Targets 192pg). In the above mentioned thread, it was pointed out that all the other spells in Hard Targets are manipulation which suggests the Spellblades would be manipulation as well. That would also explain the absence of a listed AP value.

The inclusion of the spells Manabolt and Powerbolt obfuscate the induction that Spellblades is a Manipulation spell. The referenced spells imply that Spellblades is a combat spell which would explain how to resist (not soak), however all other Combat spells are Instant (not Sustained).

Given the ambiguity of the spell, I suggest the following changes/errata:
  • Spellblades is a Manipulation spell
  • Characteristics remain the same
  • AP is equal to the net hits on an Opposed Spellcasting test verses Force
  • AP applies to either Phyiscal Armor or Mystic Armor
  • Spellblades merely creates a weapon which is resisted using either Body or Willpower (plus relevant Armor)
  • Only one armor applies

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #1 on: <03-01-16/1937:40> »
From what I can find, there are no Indirect Mana combat spells.

That's b/c all the other Mana spells are always Direct damage. You are subconsciously guiding magical energies through the aether and towards your target(s). That's why any amount of obfuscation, even a silk curtain or a lesser Invisibility spell, will prevent someone from getting hit with a Manaball. You couldn't actually see the target, and so they are unaffected.


Hard Targets pg 192, Spellblades
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Attempts to create a sustained damaging connection of energy failed to yield the desired results, but they resulted in a maintained extension of a spell, based on the formulas for Manabolt and Powerbolt.
They're based on Manabolt and Powerbolt, so they are Combat spells.

Quote
A Powerblade operates on the same principle as a Powerbolt or Powerball, affecting physical objects, capable of parrying and resisted by armor. A Manablade works like a Manabolt or Manaball, bypassing armor and capable of affecting spirits, but unable to parry physical attacks or damage objects. Note that weapon foci are able to parry Spellblades of either type due to their magically active nature...

The damage for the weapons created by this spell equals to the Force plus the net hits rolled on the melee weapon skill of the wielder’s choice. (In spite of the name, the Clubs or Blades skill works equally well). The Accuracy of the Spellblade is equal to the Force of the spell, and the Reach is 1.

Manablade is easy to resolve. Since it's actually a sword held in your hand instead of magical energy flying through the air, you still have to make an attack roll. Which means the opponent gets to avoid with the usual Reaction + Intuition. If you hit, they only get to soak with Willpower unless they have magical armor. It only affects living beings, just like Manabolt would, so it passes through normal armor.

Powerblade is basically the same, still requiring an attack roll which can be avoided. If it hits, they should only be able to soak with Body, as per Powerbolt. However, the spell write up does very clearly say "resisted by armor", which means they get their Armor as well. The easiest solution I can think of, would be to go with the Indirect combat spell rules in this regard. giving it AP -(Force). And they get to apply any amount of armor they would normally apply. That means someone wearing a Leather Jacket, with Mystic Armor cast, gets to use all of those to soak.


There's still no real point in rolling, aside from seeing if you completely botch the casting. But otherwise everything about the spell is contingent on the Force of the spell, not the roll. Which is fine, since the roll that really matters is the attack roll when you swing it around.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #2 on: <03-01-16/2009:33> »
Quote
They're based on Manabolt and Powerbolt, so they are Combat spells.
Why argue "RAI" interpretation in a homebrew thread? They happen to be a line of research based on those spells.

Marcus Gideon

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« Reply #3 on: <03-01-16/2044:45> »
Quote
They're based on Manabolt and Powerbolt, so they are Combat spells.
Why argue "RAI" interpretation in a homebrew thread? They happen to be a line of research based on those spells.
Because OP is trying to decipher how to treat the damage and AP for the magical lightsaber. The treatment of which are very different between Combat and Manipulation spells in general.

Also...
"Combat spells use mana to create damaging effects, either by direct or indirect means."
"Manipulation spells control, animate, or transform matter and energy."

This isn't Animating some object to deal damage. This isn't Flinging some small item. This isn't Igniting the target. It's exactly the same as casting Manabolt or Powerbolt, and then swinging it around and hitting people with it. If it weren't for the fact that the spell itself says "resisted by armor" then I would say either version ignores armor anyway. Either you resist the Manablade with Willpower, or you resist the Powerblade with Body, but both versions are pure magical energies and should pass through armor just like the Bolt spells do. In any case, they do not perform in any way like any of the other Manipulation spells. Illusionary fireballs don't get to be Combat spells, they are still Illusions.
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Novocrane

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« Reply #4 on: <03-01-16/2144:07> »
Quote
"Manipulation spells control [and] animate, [...] energy."
Sounds like what they achieved to me, as written by yourself.

Quote
It's exactly the same as casting Manabolt or Powerbolt, and then swinging it around and hitting people with it.
Alike in some ways. Different in others. ITT: manipulation blades.

Lucean

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« Reply #5 on: <03-02-16/0212:07> »
Quote
They're based on Manabolt and Powerbolt, so they are Combat spells.
Why argue "RAI" interpretation in a homebrew thread? They happen to be a line of research based on those spells.
Also...
"Combat spells use mana to create damaging effects, either by direct or indirect means."
"Manipulation spells control, animate, or transform matter and energy."
Combat spells in general create instantaneous damaging effects. Manipulation allows damaging effects to persist longer.

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #6 on: <03-02-16/0323:11> »
That's not a rule and there is in fact a combat spell that has a sustained damaging effect: Flame Burst from Shadow Spells
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Lucean

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« Reply #7 on: <03-02-16/0616:57> »
And what part of "in general" does this spell invalidate?

Jack_Spade

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« Reply #8 on: <03-02-16/0621:57> »
No part.  :)
It's just important to note since it invalidates the assertion, that only manipulation would be a valid class for those spells.
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Lucean

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« Reply #9 on: <03-02-16/0630:23> »
Ok, it's just me then, disliking the direction taken with some of the more recent spells. Namely the introduction of Aura-type spells like Vampiric Speed, the mentioned Flame Burst (which doesn't mention how broad that "pulse" of flame is) and especially the actual X-Blades. :(

FasterN8

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« Reply #10 on: <03-07-16/1135:55> »
Either you resist the Manablade with Willpower, or you resist the Powerblade with Body, but both versions are pure magical energies and should pass through armor just like the Bolt spells do.

I agree completely about the powerblade that powerblade passing through armor, IF in fact, it is based on powerbolt spells. 

We have a Jedi-themed character that just came in to our game and I felt like I had to recast those two spells to make more sense.  As written, manabolt seemed a little too strong and powerblade was WAY too weak to be worthwhile for a mage to use.  Both weapons have non-trivial drain if you cast them at a force worth having and a mage getting into melee is it's own penalty AND the sustaining thing is another drawback.  Then once you get into melee, the manablade was nearly an instant win and powerblade is... meh.

Take it or leave it, but here' is what I did for those two spells:
Drain on both is F-3.
Base damage on manablade weapon is the net hits on the spellcasting.
Powerblade is a physical manipulation spell to account for it being blocked by armor and stuff.
Powerblade still has base damage based on force, but AP = net hits x2.
Both weapons add armed combat net hits to the weapon base damage as normal.

Much of this was based on my players desire to be jedi-like so the powerblade does a little more damage, but it's REALLY good at cutting through barriers and stuff (with enough time of course).  So in this version Powerblade is not based on powerbolt except as the idea was spawned from the Manablade research.  Manablade is still the ethereal blade described in the book and can be used in astral combat to replace your charisma as your DV.

Since Manabolt is simply spellcasting vs Will = damage, I wanted to keep the same mechanic for this manablade and this tones it down just slightly.  Now if you aggregate the rolls, manablade damage ultimately becomes Blades + Spellcasting vs Will + Physcal defense, so it gives the mage 2 opposed dicerolls to do damage at the same time.  Better, but with the risks of melee.

One more thing:  With powerblade AP being net hits x2, it becomes more on par with manablade for damage since with very high net hits since it will significantly reduce armor on regular dudes, but probably not entirely on corp security with 18+ armor.
« Last Edit: <03-07-16/1141:32> by FasterN8 »