[Ionic]

Please give some errata and answers regarding the well-discussed Diffusion of Firewall vs. Hosts question.

[ZeroIP]

Also if you can please define the rules for Resonance Realms Searches. Right now the "Event Horizon" is great for fluff but is unable to be used and many GM's will not allow for Resonance Realms to be used because they need RAW rules as guidance. Without it one of the core aspects of technomancers that has been given is practically useless in game. We need definitive rules otherwise technomancers are going to slowly fade into being a fluff piece with no actual merit for their abilities or gameplay.

[Finstersang]

So, assuming there´s some room for Errata: What´s wrong with the current Crunch and what could be done to fix it?

General Stuff:

• No +2 Bonus on Threading and Compiling/Decompiling/Registering Sprites when in Hot Sim VR. Doesn´t make any sense to me.
• No direct connections before Skinlink Echo, thus no direct connections after Chargen. FIX: Allow d.c. through Trodes/Datajacks or give us a way to have Skinlink at Chargen.
• Frustrating chargen, especially for Orks an Trolls. FIX: There are numerous ways to fix this, even without invasive Errata: New Qualities that help with the limit problems, Resonance Streams for different Attribute/Living Persona assignments etc. But if an Errata is in the picture:  Have a deep, concerned look at the Priority Table. Look (and count, karma-Wise) what a the awakened folks get at the same priority, then adjust. Make Resonance D a thing, and allow for the free skill points to be used on the Cracking and Electronics Skillgroup, or at least just on the Software skill.

Complex Forms:
Oh Boy! These are a mess. There´s need for improvement for so many of them, and the rest is still nothing that makes you shout "Wow, I want to play a Technomancer". So, lets line them up for an assortment of slaps suggestions:

Core Rulebook:

• Cleaner: Usefull, although it will probably be cast a lot on L1 to keep the drain and sustaining penalty managable. Lots of Fading Rolls, if your SL wants to screw you…
  
• Diffusion of Matrix Attribute: High Drain, unclear if usable against Hosts/IC.
  
• Editor: High Drain, questionable advantage over just using the Edit File action. As I read it, you don´t need a mark, but what about Data Bombs and Protection? Also, why not make it sustainable for continous editing?
  
• Infusion of Matrix Attribute: High Drain, but at least it´s kinda able to fix the Matrix Attribute problem. With better ways to remove sustaining penalties I could see myself use this.
  
• Puppeteer: YAY! The Master of Puppets! No we´re talking! Or… not. Because with that Drain value, Puppeteer is nothing but a suicide button. With the added „2 net hits for a simple Action, 3 net hits for a complex Action“-rule, there´s already good reasons to thread Puppeteer on a high level, so why add that ridiculous +4 Drain? Just so that even the „Level 1 + Edge“-guy takes some Fading to the face? Compare this to the Mage´s Control Thoughts/Control Actions Spells: Take Force MINUS 1 in Drain, and you can make people shoot themselfes! And Puppeteer doesn´t even live up to its name: You can only control one action. FIX: Really, this one is almost insulting. Please, fix the Drain. Also, a(nother) CF that allows prolonged control would be neat.
  
• Resonance Spike. Almost completely useless. The Complex Form equivalent of Stunbolt/Manabolt, but with higher Fading and a second resistance Attribute. There´s a good chance to hurt yourself more than your opponent, and the damage dealt (if any) will be pretty low. And all this in an environment where you really want to oneshot your targets before your opponents switch wireless off. Just… nah. The only advantage is that you don´t raise your OS. Still, marking the Target 2-3 times and giving them the regular Dataspike is much better. 
  
• Resonance Veil: High need for clarification and examples. Could be nice, but not if the GM kawooshes everything usefull.
  
• Static Bomb: High Drain, the only advantage over the Hide action is the ability to hide from more than one target. Love the fact that, „of course“, you still can´t hide from targets that have placed a mark on you. Of course! It´s not like you´re some kind of paranomaly gifted Tech-Wizard, right?
  

Data Trails:

• Derezz: Like Resonance Spike, but even worse. The additional +2 Drain is by no means justified just for the additional Firewall reduction.
• FAQ: Soooo, it´s like a Matrix search, right? You google how to use a device. It´s faster than a Matrix search, but that´s it. Meh. An „Analyse Device“ Spell would have given your bonus dice, but yeah, that´s what Mages are for. Getting bonuses shooting Rocket launchers ´n stuff.
• IC Tray: I always thought you could get these informations by Matrix Perception? Anyway, barely a niche CF. It´s not like you could actually use this information for anything else than saying „screw this, that host will kill me (Since I´m a seriously underpowered Technomancer)!“.
• Redundancy: Probably the most/only usefull one in Data Trails. Needs clarification: Is this usable on a living Persona?
• Misread marks:  High Drain, only usable inside of a Host, also needs clarification: What happens when a mark is attacked? Is this an attack against a bearer oft he mark or does the IC try to delete the mark?

Echoes:
Core Rulebook:

• [Matrix Attribute] Upgrade: Bit of a low return. FIX: Probably change the bonus to Submersion Grade / 2?
• Mind Over Machine: Nice, but confusing redundancy with Data Trails´ MMRI.
• Neurofilter: Even lower return than [Matrix Attribute] Upgrade. A complete waste of Karma. FIX: Maybe a fixed Damage reduction, like a Platelet Factory for Biofeedback.
• Resonance Link: Yeah, as if there´s any table out there with two Technomancers JK, but still, its just a niche ability. As a GM, I could probably use it for NPC, but why would a SC need this?
• Resonance [Programm]: Usefull, but only because it is so bitterly needed.  Without Resonance programms you can´t link-lock enemies, nuke a File, or deal any Biofeedback damage. Because it´s an Echo, you can´t do anything of these pretty basic things after chargen. Incredibly low return as well: a single Matrix programm costs a Decker from 80 to 250 bucks, for a TM it´s 10+ Karma. FIX: Make it aprogramm slot, or at least specifically allow this to be used for the Virtual machine Programm. My favourite/houseruled version: 1 Programm Slot per level of the Echo (max. 3) that´s able to emulate the Effects of any Cyberprogramm except virtual Machine, Konfigurator and Agents (no buying/externeal carrying needed), but switching the Programm takes a Komplex Action instead of a free Action. Also: Make this Echo somehow available at Chargen and/or make the only-through-programms-functionalities mentioned above available through additional CFs or Sprites.

Data Trails:

• FFF: Good idea, I like it. However, the Pain editors -1 to Intuition is pretty bad, especially for a TM. I hope the FFF can be toggled on and off?
• Mathematics: Huh? Encryption/Decryption? Is this still a thing in 5th Ed.? Any rules on this? Also, screw those limit-only bonuses!
• MMRI: See „Mind Over Machine“ above.
• Resonance Riding: „All other resonance actions are available“. Um… are there any left besides Killing Komplex Forms and Decompiling Sprites?
• Resonance Scream: 2 points of noise are likely to be compensated by most deckers and Riggers. Any way of increasing the noise? Maybe scale it with Submersion Grade? Also, the TM is affected as well (and will probably have less noise reduction).

Sprites:
Actually, these are mostly fine. Just one thing:

• Please clarify the scope of the Machine sprite´s Diagnostics ability once and for all. TBH, I wouldn´t be mad if the Power doesn´t help firing a gun or hitting someone with a Baseball Bat covered in RFID-Chips, as long as there´s enough TM improvement to compensate this loss.

[/list]

[HiddenBoss]

In my view the Technomancer echos are some kind of mix of adepts and magicians in a bad way and i not talking like mystic adepts.

Adepts: they get power points that they get to cut up to buy powers. this can be powers that give boost to dice rolls to new abilities they can do. As well some metamagics they can take.
+they get power points if they up their magic.

Magicians: the metamagic give them new abilities or helps with their spell casting in some way, take Centering as more dice to help cut down drain, with some metamagics powers base on your grade meaning they get more powerful the more you do Initiations.
(just going to say it now, i not played a magician and do not get how the arts work from street grimoire, i love for someone to help me get them sometime, i do get how the metamagic works from the core rule book any way.)

Deckers: They use money to pay for new decks, Augmentations and programs, Augmentations can cost a lot for the good ones(more so for better grade ones) and programs mostly cost 80-250 per program.

This is not a problem i think but it does highlight the echos for Technomancer in just odd.

Technomancer: echos are over the place.
programs echos: it takes one echo to copy the use of one program that you can not change out
i have no idea if they can be crashed or seen by other people as well like a program would for a decker. To top it off this puts the echo cost at 80-250 when you look at the decker and for them to have them.(true they can be crashed, seen and maybe lost in cases but they are cheap and change out when needed for the decker)

Augmentation echos: they are echos that copy a Augmentation that would cost essence and money for others, so far there 2 or 3 echos in my view here(4 but one copy of the other one)

Mind over Machine:like the control rig,you jump in to anything that got a rigger interface on top of uping the Handling and Speed of Vehicles lowing the thresholds base on your rateing, it not base on your grade but the number of times you take the echo so you get a less back here if you take it more then one time.

skinlink:some of you may say but that not a Augmentation but is copying a datajack and then some so it going here.
it "acts" like a datajack letting them touch something to directly interface with it. i say and then some as it acts better then a datajack as they got to find a port to link in to (and i recall corps keep them hidden in hard to get places or places you can not get to at all without moving things from what i recall from the core rule book) skinlink only need you to touch it and it kind of hard for corps in most cases to make sure no one can touch it at all. meaning it can be a easy way in hacking a host as the host can not def what your hacking directly.

FFF:
it gives you the use of pain editor with all the ups and downs, deadly if one does not use it right but can be a life saver.
i not going in to all of it but the power to stay conscious when your Stun Condition Monitor is completely full as Technomancer taking hits when hacking as stun meaning it can be a life saver if someone going to put your lights out when your hacking.
pointing out that the augmentation base is has, avail(18F) mean your going to jail if they find one on you, Technomancer only pay a echo and there no sign of a pain editer, the only 2 down sides is that you can only take it as your 2nd echo on but that not too bad the other is that you do not not know close to being killed you are and it hard to tell when in VR, you need a Biomonitor sending to your persona or maybe you can use the echo Sleepwaker to see if you bleeding at the nose.

Not taking in skinlink , Control Rig R1 and pain editor cost about 43-48k in cash without taking in grades here but you are using one echo but no essence, avail or cash for the TM.

Echos base off your Resonance attribute
just Quiet and Resonance Scream that ups or down noise in an area about the TM.

Echos base off grade
(this space for rent, AKA zero)
so no echos so far that power up you get higher grades

The Echos that up your ASDF
They only add +1 to that stat and can be taken 2 times(or 3 as you can take a program echo to up it by one)
no idea how this work to money but i think there are echos that got more use then just a +1 to stat and limit for one full echo.
but they maybe needed in later play as a human caps out at 6/6/6/6 meaning most Technomancer unless a race that not human will not have stats close to a high end deck unless they drop a lot of echos on the uping their ASDF but then what point of having echos.
(just my view here and maybe wrong on this part)

so my echo can buy me the same as 80Y-250Y program or a 40k+ augmentation that not show up at all unless someone can tell your using it....
and it case by case to see if the other abilities are useful to get and if there work about or tech that can buy to do about the same thing.

i talk about complex forms some other time.

[Rule of Three]

It sounds like people are FINDING uses for them, but not, perhaps, using them as expected in design.

I would be thrilled with live examples of a technomancer in play; show us, from a design perspective, what you want them doing in their environment! Show us the actual archetype in the world. Show us why its better to be a technomancer in various examples and how they should play.

None of that should be fluff alone.

[Smogg]

Just a few suggestions for a the Technomancer book.

1. Access Sprites. Would be cool with a new type of sprite that specialize in manipulating marks. Maybe if they have a mark on a device, they could hand off their mark to the technomancer or another sprite.

2. Link Sprites: A sprite with a link power that could be activated. This power would allow the link sprite to forge a direct connection between another sprite and a device to which the technomancer already has a direct connection.

3. Link Form: An alternative idea could be a complex form allowing the technomancer to form direct connections between sprites and devices. Likely provided he already has direct connection to the device.   

2 or 3 would be cool because it would give technomancers more encouragement to be physically on the site if they wish to use sprites for hacking. Skinlink and Resonance Riding would be great for sprite-focused technomancers. Either way defenetly think through how Technomancers and Sprites can work better together in a smooth way when hacking their way into a host.

4. Complex form to generate a temporary fake SIN that would have to be sustained. This could be a really useful and unique power

5. An echo or complex form that would let the technomancer emulate a skilljack to some degree.

6. If looking for technomancer stuff that would allow him to spend money, a good option might be to let the technomancers buy/rent small hosts that could be used for all kind of different tricks. Kind of a home in the matrix. Maybe it could have things like secure data storage, skill storage, hosting capabilities for fake company front-ends to be used in con games. Maybe sprites would be able to take advantage of a host as a dwelling.

7. Also consider that without the +2 bonus for being in VR, the technomancer often does not have any carrot to enter VR. Of course if he is in combat and he want to win, the high initiative is nice. But if looking to avoid combat anyway VR will not give an edge. Maybe some carrot is needed.

Hope my ideas helps a bit. Good luck with technomancer book.


Oh yeah and table of contents and index.. INDEX PLS!!!

[Triskavanski]

Fist, you've missed the Complex form from Chromed Flesh.
Coriolis Fade value L+3
Duration E (Whatever E means, possibly extended)

And basically is a 24 hour extended test. Which at anytime this is stopped.. You take all the fade damage, unresistant. And so does the host! Oddly, this happens if the fragment gives up control to the host as well. If you wanna talk about a suicide button, well this CF is it! Since in those 24 hours you'll experience hunger, going to the bathroom all over yourself, thirst, and a severe lack of sleep. Better hope you don't critically glitch, because that makes the interval 48 hours instead, and the hits achieved go down to 0.

[Moonshine Fox]

A complex form that changes the ownership of a device for a time could be pretty cool.

[Finstersang]

4. Complex form to generate a temporary fake SIN that would have to be sustained. This could be a really useful and unique power

Great idea! And it would be quite reasonable, too: The SIN verification system was implemented when people had no clue that someday the emergence of Technomancy would happen. And while the hosts and databases are regulary patched for state-of-the-art protection, the core system itself might offer some esoteric cracks the for Technomancers to exploit - cracks that are either unknown or just too hard to fix without shutting down the whole system, so they persist.

I actually houseruled some CF that use these cracks a few weeks ago:

Threaded Identity works exactly like Smogg suggested, with some added detail: The SIN and the attached Biometric and Personal Data formed by the CF are somewhat "proceduraly generated" and optimised to fool electronic verification systems. Against these systems, the "Resonance SIN" uses the full amount of Net Hits as the SIN Rating (which can probably be even more than 6). BUT: For Metahuman / sapient exeminators, the threaded SIN looks strangely suspicous: Strange Patterns of numbers, strange names, strangely artificial Fingerprints and Photographs. Thus, against sapient examination, the SIN works only at half the Rating. Also, once the CF is dropped, the artificial Identity formed by it cannot be restored again, so the TM will still need some kind of permanent SIN. But he can use the CF to make one up on the fly for himself, his team members or NPCs - and that would be hella´usefull

Cast out SIN can be used on any kind of SIN (faked, legal, threaded) to temporarily scramble efforts to verify the SIN via the SIN verification System. The target SIN defends itself with its Rating (or 7, if it´s a legal SIN) + the owners Edge (it´s kind of a luck thing if your SIN is more or less vulnerable to manipulation). This can be used to stop or delay a target person, for example at an airport or during in a police control.
 
Recognize SIN can be used to access personal data linked to a certain SIN without accessing the SIN network. Resistance works same as with Cast out SIN .The number of net hits determines the depth of information: 1 for the bare essentials (sex, name, country), 2 for stuff like photographs, convictions, licences, 3+ for the "yummy" stuff like biometric data (including fingerprints, retina scans or even gene sequences!), health history, movement patterns, augmentations...

5. An echo or complex form that would let the technomancer emulate a skilljack to some degree.

There was the "Biowire" Echo in 4th Ed. which even offered the benefits of Skillwires with a Rating of [Submersion Grade].The Biowires were also a prerequisite for the "Acceleration" Echo, the TMs own version of Wired Reflexes/Synaptic Boosters/Increase Reflexes/etc.

IMO, a skillJACK with [Resonance] Rating should be something all TMs get for free (I use the German Core Rulebook where Skilljacks cost only 10% of the price in the english version, which I find much more reasonable), and the Biowires (and the Acceleration Echo) should definitely come back.
 

[living]

i would secon the points mentioned by HiddenBoss. the only thing i disagree is the rework of the machine sprit. that bonus on smartlinks is the only reason my sams accept me as a member...

[FST_Gemstar]

The more I think about it, the less I think technomancers need major crunch fixes. Sure, the fade values of CFs are too high, what the scope of machine spite diagnostic power needs clarity, the cost/benefit analysis of lots of echoes are pretty poor, and the method of trying to direct connect through a wirelessly enabled datatap is suspect. In all though, these aren't difficult to address in a PDF (though it would have been nice if they were errata'd). Additionally, adding the analogous technomancer versions of magical traditions, diverse metamagics, mentor spirits, and foci (I never played 4th but paragons, streams, etc. fit the bill) would be a nice addition to technomancer customization and viability (though I would argue this would have been a nicer addition to data trails than AI PCs, really, how many AIs are shadowrunners?)

I think the biggest issue with technomancers is the fluff. The fluff does not match the crunch, making playing and generating characters confusing and frustrating. I guess a lot of the fluff is written from an outside view, what society thinks of technomancers, and hopefully the PDF could include more fluff from diverse technomancer perspectives to help address this. Some examples that have irked me:

"Very few [technomancers] are actually hackers, and only a few of those are talented enough to be shadowrunners." This has bugged and confused me. If very few technomancers are hackers, why are all examples of technomancers hackers? Or does this mean that the only way a technomancer can be a shadowrunner is if they are the few very skilled technohackers out there?

All of the verbage about Technomancers feeling more at home in matrix, comparing them to squids in the sea vs scuba divers (Deckers), that the matrix is more real to them than the meat. The only crunch connection to these statements are the +2 to matrix perception that technomancers get in VR and their built in DNI. I'm not doubting the benefit of these things, but I expect a squid to be a better swimmer, hunter, hider, when in water than most scuba divers, but deckers are consistently better and more adaptable at hacking functions than technomancers and seem more equipped to deal with more diverse Matrix issues than technomancers.  Sure deckers have to invest in decks, but in terms of crunch, deckers with Resources A or B are likely to have bigger dice pools for more matrix actions than Resonance A or B technomancers.  Additionally, this idea that technomancers are wiz programmers doesn't seem to pan out to me, as again, deckers sling code just fine and to more consistent effect than technomancers. Maybe because they need software skills for Complex Forms? Complex Forms aren't really matrix coding though... it's more akin to magic. The base code of CFs aren't even recognizable in the Matrix. So why should technomancers be so good at coding, and why are deckers consistently better than them at coding?

I would also like to get more information about the legal status of technomancers. Many players complain that technomancers are a "hard mode" character type due to their limitations, but I would argue that I am ok with them being hard mode but not due to their limits but to their status in the 6th World. Where do they need to be registered? What about bounties? Who is likely to try to sell them out? Should they really buy dummy decks to hide their abilities? What about Johnsons? Who will hire open technomancers? Who will try to snag them for their corps? I'm not sure this is fleshed out enough for players and GMs alike to really get a good grasp on playstyles.

Finally, so much matrix utility is for meat world application. Crunchwise: wireless benefits. Really what I want to see diverse ways technomancers get an edge in the meatworld precisely because of their matrix familiarity, not dump everything physical and want to stay in VR all the time and still not be good at VR actions as deckers. Again, I think this is more akin to magic. Magicians utilize mana and can explore the astral world, but they do most of their work affecting the physical world with all sorts of spells and spirits. The wireless Matrix allows data to be all around technomancers which they supposedly can swim through and manipulate like squids, but the fluff for technomancers as it stands shies so much from physical feats. Show us combat technomancers, stealth technomancers, facemancers, etc. I know i have tried to build characters like these and I think in terms of game design technomancers are better suited to be non-hackers, but really, I have no idea how they fit into the shadowrun universe because everything is so hacker focused.

[dragrubis]

[...]because everything is so hacker focused.

And not good at hacking...

[HiddenBoss]

ok i had a look at complex forms and like people been saying, the Fading is too high and some of them as just a copy or lesser copy of magic spells.
it will just fall under errata at this point so i only like to say that stitches needs the same power as heal to use a hit dice to lower the time to make it permanent.

And is there any point for players to hunt down a Resonance well? Most of the powers a TM has to be used in the place they need to use it like in a host or not in the host with the well.....(the matrix is "your in this host or your not in this host" at this point, and you can not doing anything that not in the same place as you)
so unless i want to do a lot of registering tests there no point to me finding one of them. Maybe they can get a drink of power that boost them for a bit(over do it and they get a addiction test to become addiction to resonance well)

What about rituals or something a like to them for TM so they can better make use of the wells? call it posting or maybe a great weaving?
If there rules for evil magic then maybe some for playing a dissonant user, for the gm use at any rate, as well some echos, complex forms and maybe a sprite or two for fighting dissonant(dissonant users can not get anti dissonant powers), and some more dissonant only things.

As well i like to see is complex forms and echos that make use of the new matrix(it is new world out there), some complex forms or echod that give use actions that a decker can not do at all would be a good start i think.(RESONANCE VEIL is a good idea of this but it need a lot of ruling, i got no idea how people can react to the damm thing)

i like the idea of complex forms that play about with sin's, i never took in the use of playing with sin's so good idea there.


 

[Finstersang]

ok i had a look at complex forms and like people been saying, the Fading is too high and some of them as just a copy or lesser copy of magic spells.
it will just fall under errata at this point so i only like to say that stitches needs the same power as heal to use a hit dice to lower the time to make it permanent.

PLUS: Why not a a Komplex Form that Works like the actual Heal Spell, but for Matrix Damage Monitor of devices (unless bricked)? With the same rules like the Heal spell, e.g. sustaining it before it becomes permanent and only working on one Set of Matrix Damage a time? The TM won´t be able to heal himself (since he´s got no Matrix Damage Monitor), but he can quickly patch up Drones, Kommlinks, etc. Of course, the leftover Damage still has to be "healed" by being repaired.

[HiddenBoss]

PLUS: Why not a a Komplex Form that Works like the actual Heal Spell, but for Matrix Damage Monitor of devices (unless bricked)? With the same rules like the Heal spell, e.g. sustaining it before it becomes permanent and only working on one Set of Matrix Damage a time? The TM won´t be able to heal himself (since he´s got no Matrix Damage Monitor), but he can quickly patch up Drones, Kommlinks, etc. Of course, the leftover Damage still has to be "healed" by being repaired.

Why it is true that tm's do not have a Matrix Damage bar, they can use redundancy to get one but i got no idea if it be better to heal that or just set up a new  redundancy,