[cravix]

So it seems like magic damage is extremely low compared to weapons. I am taking stun damage to get a few points of damage in while the rest are doing 10+ physical damage shredding them with guns. Now we are now and maybe im missing something but dang.

[RHat]

"A few points"?  You're just using direct spells, aren't you?  Stop that.  Indirect spells are the bread and butter, though the elemental riders are a big part of the benefit there still.

[ZeConster]

It's possible you're missing something, but it's hard to find out without a description of how you think the rules work. It's doable for a wizard to get 11 Drain resist dice, which gives them 0.32 post-resist Drain on average for a spell with a Drain Value of 3 - which is what a Force 6 Acid Stream, with a base damage value of 6P and AP -6, will get you. A little higher on the rank, you've got a Force 6 Ball Lightning for an average of 1.5 post-resist Drain, while doing 6P/-6 Electric damage (so -5 to Initiative Score and -1 to all actions for a round unless they reduce the damage to 0) to everyone within a 12-meter diameter circle. And of course, if things get nasty and you've got someone ready to drag you away, you can throw a 12P/-12 Ball Lightning that'll hit everyone within a 24-meter diameter circle.

[Shinobi Killfist]

It trends lower even with indirect spells.  But the same skill allows more than just damage so I think it pans out.

[RHat]

It trends lower even with indirect spells.  But the same skill allows more than just damage so I think it pans out.

Yeah, but it's not just "a few points" - and I did note that the elemental riders are part of the benefit.  Still, at Force 6 and factoring AP, indirects are pretty well on par with Heavy Pistol damage; you can also use Reagents to cap the hits somewhere safe and scale the damage to the level of the frigging Ranger Arms SM-5 at Force 12.

(For the OP:  Each point of AP counts as .33 damage; AP -6 means 2 damage, and AP -12 means 4 damage.  So, effectively, Force 6 is 8 damage, and Force 12 is 16)

[Michael Chandra]

Direct Spells do damage with a near-100% certainty, while competent enemies in -3 circumstances and behind cover will be a pain in the neck to hit with those tough attacks. And once you fire a few rounds in such a combat, you're definitely feeling recoil problems.

Meanwhile, Indirect Spells are doable to throw and an AoE Indirect Spell is not avoidable so it's gonna hurt the enemies a LOT.

[cravix]

It trends lower even with indirect spells.  But the same skill allows more than just damage so I think it pans out.

Yeah, but it's not just "a few points" - and I did note that the elemental riders are part of the benefit.  Still, at Force 6 and factoring AP, indirects are pretty well on par with Heavy Pistol damage; you can also use Reagents to cap the hits somewhere safe and scale the damage to the level of the frigging Ranger Arms SM-5 at Force 12.

(For the OP:  Each point of AP counts as .33 damage; AP -6 means 2 damage, and AP -12 means 4 damage.  So, effectively, Force 6 is 8 damage, and Force 12 is 16)

At force 12 arent we talking about a large drain?

[ImaginalDisc]

I feel like I should know this already, but do environmental factors (visibility conditions) and cover/concealment matter to direct or indirect spells?

[JackVII]

They for sure do with indirect spells, although you can actually use vision mods to help deal with them for indirect spells.

I think there are rulings/suggestions that cover modifiers be applied to direct spells.

[ZeConster]

At force 12 arent we talking about a large drain?

9 pre-soak for single-target, 11 pre-soak for (indirect: direct isn't useful at high force) area. But you'll usually soak 3-5 of that.

[Top Dog]

At force 12 arent we talking about a large drain?

9 pre-soak for single-target, 11 pre-soak for (indirect: direct isn't useful at high force) area. But you'll usually soak 3-5 of that.

And while that's still a rather harsh amount of drain, a well-timed attack like that is a great ace up your sleeve as a magician, that you get at no extra cost. It's not something to do every day, of course, but sometimes you just have to take something out now, and magicians can always do that when they need it.

[Dracain]

This discussion has been had before, and yes, Mages can keep up very well in damage.  I'm gonna copy+paste my post from a while back, it should be fairly solid, but sorry if there are mistakes, I had only recently gotten the game at the time.  This is comparing an optimized Combat Mage vs an Optimized Street Samurai. 

Concerning RC, 6/3 is 2, so you would be at 4 from STR.  RC 4+ Shock Pad for 5+ Gas Vent 3 for 8, the gyromount makes it 14, though it is kinda iffy to count that, since it means you have to be ready and waiting for combat, whereas spontaneous combat would leave you with much less.  Not to mention, the Alpha has an underbarrel grenade launcher, which would need to be removed for the gyromount to even attach, and I KNOW some people would keep the grenade launcher for when enemies grouped up.  I'll count the gyromount, but that is something to take note of. 

The shooter is using Full-Auto (complex) and gets 6.66 (6 without gyromount), which means 6-7 hits, the target gets nothing, that is +6-7 damage.  The modified damage value is 17-18P, and the modified armor value is 10, so the attack remains physical.  The target resists 5 damage, taking 12-13P damage.  With APDS the target would resists 3.66 dmg, taking an extra 1-2P damage.   Adding explosive rounds means the weapon does 12P, -1AP, and if you critically glitch, you take damage from your weapon and the gun is destroyed.  Explosive rounds on the test means the damage is 18-19P and the target resists 4.66 damage, meaning he takes 13-15P damage.  To sum up, on the first consecutive shot on full auto with all possible recoil compensation bonuses you would do 12-13P damage with normal rounds, APDS and explosive rounds do 13-15P damage, and this costs 10 ammunition. 

Trying this two times in a row would be doable, but you would only get 4.66 hits to your shooting test (RC is 14-10-10=-6, and 20-6=14, and 14/3=4.66) which would lead to a +4-5P on damage which would lead to 15-16P, the target resists 5 damage, and takes 10-11P.  A third time would likely hit, but only by 1.33, which means +1-2P means he would take 7-8P damage.  The accumulated total would be 29-32P damage with normal rounds

Without gyromount you have RC 8, so the first shot is mostly the same, but the second shot is rolled with 8 dice (20-2 on first shot,-10=8) and would only hit with 2.66, which is +2-3P, which would lead to 13-14P, the target resists 5 damage, and takes 8-9P.  A third time would certainly not hit.  Accumulated total is 20-21P damage. 

With internal gryomount in cyberarms, you have RC 11, so first shot is the same, but the second shot is rolled with 11 rice (20+RC11-10 for first shot, -10 for second shot=11), and would hit with 3.66, which is +3-4P, which would lead to 14-15P, the tager resists 5 damage, and takes 9-10P.  A third time would almost certainly miss, with only +1 if it did.  Accumulated total is 21-23P, or 28-30P if the third shot hits. 

You can add the alternative ammunition into this yourself if you'd wish. 

For completions sake, I am gonna throw in reckless spellcasting using our good ol' test CS, who will cast the spell at force 9 as he did before. 

We start with our CS casting their spell at force 9 getting 7 hits, against our targets 2.66, which is +4-5 damage, and since the spellcasting roll does not go over our magic stat, the drain is stun.  The modified damage value is 13-14P the modified armor value is 3.  The target resist 2.66 taking 10-12P damage in the process.  Now for the important part, drain.  The drain is force-3+3(for reckless spellcasting), so in this case, 9-3+3=9.  The Mage resists 4.33 drain, taking 4-5S drain damage.  If you want you can repeat this process and the total damage done to the target is 20-24P, and the total drain taken is 8-10S.  Without reckless spellcasting the drain per cast is 1-2S meaning by the third cast accumulative total is 29-36P damage to the enemy, having taken 3-6S drain.  I know there could be a -1 on the casting of the third spell, which would change the spell to get a +3-5, which is why the total accumulative damage is 29-36P instead of 30-36P

Or we use a grenade or AOE spell, depending on the situation. 

So, here we see a Gunner can take out 2 enemies more efficiently then the Mage with gyromount, then the Mage starts with the advantage while the Gunner has to cool down (let the RC come back).  If the enemies are clustered together close enough, it would be most efficient for the Mage to throw an AOE, the non-gyromount Gunner to launch a grenade, and the gyromount Gunner to throw a grenade. 

All this is without taking elemental effects into account.  Which would add even more on the formula. 

[RHat]

It trends lower even with indirect spells.  But the same skill allows more than just damage so I think it pans out.

Yeah, but it's not just "a few points" - and I did note that the elemental riders are part of the benefit.  Still, at Force 6 and factoring AP, indirects are pretty well on par with Heavy Pistol damage; you can also use Reagents to cap the hits somewhere safe and scale the damage to the level of the frigging Ranger Arms SM-5 at Force 12.

(For the OP:  Each point of AP counts as .33 damage; AP -6 means 2 damage, and AP -12 means 4 damage.  So, effectively, Force 6 is 8 damage, and Force 12 is 16)

At force 12 arent we talking about a large drain?

Sure, but that's the tradeoff.  I mean, you don't expect to get Sniper Rifle damage without actually having to deal with all the hassles of a Sniper Rifle for no cost, do you?

The concealability of weapons is a very important factor in Shadowrun.  If you expect your perfectly concealable option to keep up in damage, you'd best be prepared for the idea that everything has a cost.

Dracain:  I'll note that full-auto is typically a poor choice for skilled shooters in SR5, with the exception of VERY short engagements.  When it comes to a sustained fight, burst fire and especially semi-auto delivers better damage potential.

[Dracain]

It trends lower even with indirect spells.  But the same skill allows more than just damage so I think it pans out.

Yeah, but it's not just "a few points" - and I did note that the elemental riders are part of the benefit.  Still, at Force 6 and factoring AP, indirects are pretty well on par with Heavy Pistol damage; you can also use Reagents to cap the hits somewhere safe and scale the damage to the level of the frigging Ranger Arms SM-5 at Force 12.

(For the OP:  Each point of AP counts as .33 damage; AP -6 means 2 damage, and AP -12 means 4 damage.  So, effectively, Force 6 is 8 damage, and Force 12 is 16)

At force 12 arent we talking about a large drain?

Sure, but that's the tradeoff.  I mean, you don't expect to get Sniper Rifle damage without actually having to deal with all the hassles of a Sniper Rifle for no cost, do you?

The concealability of weapons is a very important factor in Shadowrun.  If you expect your perfectly concealable option to keep up in damage, you'd best be prepared for the idea that everything has a cost.

Dracain:  I'll note that full-auto is typically a poor choice for skilled shooters in SR5, with the exception of VERY short engagements.  When it comes to a sustained fight, burst fire and especially semi-auto delivers better damage potential.

Like I said, older post, I didn't know as much at the time.  That said, I was comparing high damage output forms, spells can be adjusted either way with just a minor force change, and I think that in the end, magic can actually keep up in damage with weapons, but it requires a heavy investment.  The simple fact is that weapons are capped in their damage output, magic is not.  I could have used more force, even one more force would have changed the DPS entirely.  Another thing to keep in mind is that the two characters I compared there are fresh out of chargen, and the Mage can go up in damage MUCH more than the gunner, I mean, it would not take much to give that Mage the ability to quicken spells to improve their drain stats, thus giving them much higher drain, and the ability to cast far more often at higher drain values with less risk.  To keep up with the damage potential of a gunner is costly, and the drain will eventually get the Mage, but at the same time, a well build Combat Mage can keep up with, and even surpass, a gunner, depending on the situation. 

[RHat]

Yeah, but you gotta figure that by the time you're getting into games that have enough Karma for that to be an issue, Run'n'Gun will be out to extend the firearms options.  Plus, as you surpass the Accuracy of your weapon you can start bring called shots into the mix without significant penalty.