Shadowrun
Shadowrun Play => Rules and such => Topic started by: Sir_Prometheus on <07-23-14/1254:43>
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Specifically, which penalties can you use it on, or not.
Adept Centering
allows you to reduce negative dice pool modifiers to
Physical and Combat skills (such as modifiers from adverse
conditions)
OK, so adverse conditions is just listed as an example, but that lets us know we could use it on penalties such as glare, lowlight, smoke, etc. Surely slippery floors, a rocking ship deck, all that too.
Can you use it for the shooting blind (-6) penalty? That's just the same as complete darkness, an adverse condition.
Now, it's not like it can be used only for adverse penalties, that's just an example.
Can you use it on range penalties? If not, why not? That's not exactly a world ending bonus, but it means with just a couple levels of initiation, you don't really need a ranged scope most of the time, at all.
Here's the big one that occurred to me: Can you use it on Called Shot penalties? If so, whoa. Even just initiate 2 and you are suddenly thinking called shots are no big deal, using them all the time.
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You can use it for "negative modifiers". Yes, it is that open-ended; the provision of an example does not limit the rule.
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I always took it to mean what it says on the can, it can reduce any negative modifiers related to the use of the combat/physical skills.
So yeah you could be chanting as you line up that long distance shot or lining up a called shot.
The only real limitation is you only can reduce by your grade of initiation while you are performing your action and it can't be subtle, which tends to draw the attention of those around you and the magic savvy foes will know you are augmenting yourself, so that bumps you up the GeekDaMageometer.
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You can use it for "negative modifiers". Yes, it is that open-ended; the provision of an example does not limit the rule.
.....didn't say it did.
Maybe a better question: Should it have limits? Because working on literally any -dice pool modifier for a physical or combat skill is really, really powerful, at least if you have an initiation of more than one or two.
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It doesn't affect every individual penalty seperately, just the total. If you have -3 from environmental modifiers, -2 from recoil, -1 from wound modifiers and -4 from a Called Shot, Adept Centering with Initiate Grade 2 means you have a -8 instead of a -10, not a -3.
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It is really, really good once you get a few grades on your belt, because it applies to so much. But yeah, it does have limitations. Sendaz mentioned some; another big one is that it uses a free action. That means you can't really use it to offset called shots - unless you give up a standard action to do either - and there's a bunch of other useful stuff you can do with free actions as well.
Mind you, it really shines out of combat as well, when the free action doesn't really matter at all.
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I forgot calling a shot was a free action. That really nerfs it for melee attacks, another instance in which melee attacks being a complex action is sorta a weird throwback.
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[...] another instance in which melee attacks being a complex action is sorta a weird throwback.
What's actually going on there is that the assumption of the system is that, in general, a melee attack is actually a series of attacks and blocks, rather than a single strike or swing.
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I forgot calling a shot was a free action. That really nerfs it for melee attacks, another instance in which melee attacks being a complex action is sorta a weird throwback.
It depends on the centering technique and the GM, really. Multiple free actions are permissible with GM approval if they are logically compatible.
Which really just means to either clear it with your GM in a home game, or not assume it'll be allowed at a Convention game.
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Well, for Melee you could at least center away Background Count.
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I forgot calling a shot was a free action. That really nerfs it for melee attacks, another instance in which melee attacks being a complex action is sorta a weird throwback.
It depends on the centering technique and the GM, really. Multiple free actions are permissible with GM approval if they are logically compatible.
Which really just means to either clear it with your GM in a home game, or not assume it'll be allowed at a Convention game.
That's ment for things like speaking a phrase while - for example - calling a shot. Not for actual proper combat actions. Otherwise, what wouldn't combine with Called Shot? It's basically a mental or aim thing.
The test on whether it's allowed isn't "logically compatible", btw, it's "reasonable". And being able to take two combat-oriented free actions because you sing instead of dance isn't reasonable.
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And being able to take two combat-oriented free actions because you sing instead of dance isn't reasonable to my mind.
Fixed.
I think we can all agree that what is and isn't reasonable is not a universal constant, or half (or more) of the discussions on this forum would not exist.
I agree with you, Top Dog, I just also happen to think there are those who will disagree.
Like Serin_Marst said; clear it with your GM in a home game, and don't assume it'll be allowed at a Missions game. Feel free to ask, of course, but expect it not to be allowed and you won't be disappointed.
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Reasonableness may not be a universal constant, but for the ability to use Centering with further free actions to vary based on what the Centering action is, and thus for the Centering action to be chosen on the basis of that issue and not as much on a character basis seems to me like it should be unreasonable to anyone. Centering and Adept Centering should be equally useful for any mage or adept of a given initiate grade, regardless of the action chosen.
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[...] another instance in which melee attacks being a complex action is sorta a weird throwback.
What's actually going on there is that the assumption of the system is that, in general, a melee attack is actually a series of attacks and blocks, rather than a single strike or swing.
Yes, I understand, but it's still sorta a holdover. Part of it is from way back when a melee complex action described a whole exchange of blows, and the defender had a decent chance to hurt the attacker, i.e. counterstrike was built in. Remember those days?
But that's not really the paradigm the game really operates on, anymore. It's not an exchange the way it was, and an active defense is not assumed. You get one attack per action, and far less attack actions are even complex anymore. Even spell casting can be "quick-cast" now. Melee does share a similarity with full auto in that it can be split, but......eh. It feels like whatever motivations led them to think you should be able cast as a simple action, in a pinch, should apply to melee, too, but they seemed to just forget. Which they did with a lot of things.
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Would you suggest that a melee attacker get to do something like a "reckless attack" action as an option? Something like that might confer a decrease to the defense pool of the attacker for a single Initiative Pass or something similar.
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Would you suggest that a melee attacker get to do something like a "reckless attack" action as an option? Something like that might confer a decrease to the defense pool of the attacker for a single Initiative Pass or something similar.
Well, there's already sort of something like that in the "full offense" action from Run & Gun.
I think of number of people in different threads, and an idea I had myself, separately (great minds think alike) is something like a "hasty melee" attack. Alternatively, for unarmed, you could call it a "jab" or "snap kick", I don't know what you'd call it in fencing.
Basically just -3 to dice pool to do the attack as a simple action -- additionally I'd think it reasonable to say you can't split the attack like normal, not that most people would with the reduced pool. This is based off of the quick spellcasting idea.
This does a lot to create better parity between the melee guys and firearms folks. There's a lot of things just aren't a problem for a firearms guy -- drawing a weapon, called shots & centering, activating various adept powers that require a simple action, that are a HUGE deal for melee guys.
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Reasonableness may not be a universal constant, but for the ability to use Centering with further free actions to vary based on what the Centering action is, and thus for the Centering action to be chosen on the basis of that issue and not as much on a character basis seems to me like it should be unreasonable to anyone. Centering and Adept Centering should be equally useful for any mage or adept of a given initiate grade, regardless of the action chosen.
In principle, absolutely. It's a benefit bought and paid for and should apply evenly. But it's kind of hard for me to equate a kiai shout (one of the all-time classic adept centering techniques) interfering with any combat action (well, except hiding) while having ukulele playing not interfere with nearly every one of them. ;D
As Martin and I said, though: it's a GM call and you shouldn't count on it unless you've cleared it ahead of time.
Otherwise, what wouldn't combine with Called Shot? It's basically a mental or aim thing.
Honestly, if I had my druthers, Call Shot wouldn't even be an action, just a voluntary penalty. R&G even implies that certain called shots are intended to be taken with the Multiple attacks action (Sidebar p139) and Adept Centering was only turned into a free action in this edition. But I have no authority beyond my own table so that's neither here nor there.
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I forgot calling a shot was a free action. That really nerfs it for melee attacks, another instance in which melee attacks being a complex action is sorta a weird throwback.
It depends on the centering technique and the GM, really. Multiple free actions are permissible with GM approval if they are logically compatible.
Which really just means to either clear it with your GM in a home game, or not assume it'll be allowed at a Convention game.
As a GM I'd say they need the Perfect Time Quality to take more than one Free Action. Otherwise it nullifies that Quality.