[Tarislar]

For anyone experienced with Riggers,  especially in 5th Ed.

What skills are needed ?

I see all the skills they have now for what used to be Computer & Electronics way back in the day, and I'm wondering how much of it a Rigger actually uses.

Obviously a couple Pilot Skills & Gunnery are going to be important, but what else ?


Also, what would be the Riggers most important Attribute,   Agility ?  Reaction ?  Logic ?   (Assuming those are the top 3 to choose from)

[JimmyCrisis]

In my book, Rigger essentials includes:  Electronics group, Engineering group, Gunnery, all vehicles piloting, electronic warfare, armorer, navigation, tracking and perception.

This includes all the build/repair skills you're going to want.

And consider Reaction, Logic and Willpower to be your most important attributes.   You don't need agility for remote gunnery, it uses logic instead.

But I don't play a rigger regularly.  I see the groups rigger using these skills pretty often though.

[Absols]

In my book, Rigger essentials includes:  Electronics group, Engineering group, Gunnery, all vehicles piloting, electronic warfare, armorer, navigation, tracking and perception.

Thats what you consider the bare essentials? that's sixteen skills! You realize that Character Creation gives you *limited* resources right?

And consider Reaction, Logic and Willpower to be your most important attributes.

I agree with this, I'd say that reaction is the most important, and logic the second most.

[DigitalZombie]

Well, in my group, agility is used for gunnery. except when doing that targeting thing... cant remember its name
Might want to clear that up with your GM before hand:)

Otherwise I agree with the above posters. If you find yourself short on skills, you could easily by some of them at rating 1 with karma. Mostly because the team expects you to be able to control a submarine, even though you dont own one. Because "thats what riggers do". *sigh* team -mates eh?

[martinchaen]

I disagree on Reaction, simply because Riggers with Rating 3 Control Rigs very rarely needs to roll more than 1 or 2 hits for nearly any vehicle test they're called upon to make (that is, unless you frequently drive sports cars on mountain roads covered in black ice in the dark during a snow storm pulling crazy stunts the whole way).

Piloting skills are to my mind important, as are the Electronic Warfare and Gunnery skills. Unfortunately, so many of the Matrix related skills are nearly useless to a Rigger because most of the Matrix Actions require Sleaze or Attack attributes, which means a Rigger can't perform them himself.

In terms of skills riggers are likely to use, you're looking at:
Gunnery (can be used with Logic if Sensor Targeting is used; this is NOT an optional rule, and should require absolutely no clearing with GM first)
Sneaking (used with Intuition according to the core book)
Perception (can and should, in my opinion, be substituted with the Electronic Warfare skill, still uses Intuition)
Pilot X (whatever you want to be prepared for)
Navigation (lets face it, no one else takes this unless they take the outdoors skill group, so as a Rigger you probably should be able to have a sense of direction )
Electronic Warfare (used to both Compensate on the Fly and Perception)
Computer (used to spot the opponents that are hiding, highly useful on your own and as a secondary spotter when there's a matrix specialist around)

Skills like engineering, hardware, and software are handy, but not what I would consider essential.

Matrix Actions you're actually able to perform:
Change Icon (yay... seriously, buy a Wrapper program)
Control Device (various)
Disarm Data Bomb (Software)
Edit File (Computer)
Enter/Exit Host
Full Matrix Defense (no skill)
Grid Hop (no skill unless you hack...)
Invite Mark (no skill)
Jack Out (biggest reason to take Hardware)
Jump Into Rigged Device (only requires a test if you don't own the device, and you can't hack the required marks on the device, so not really sure when this would ever apply)
Matrix Perception (Computer, and biggest reason to take Computer to my mind)
Matrix Search (You might already have Computer, and a browse program adds some versatility to the teams matrix specialist in terms of more information browsing capabilities)
Reboot Device (Computer)
Send Message (no skill)
Switch Interface Mode (no skill)
Trace Icon (Computer, but requires 2 marks so you'll be unlikely to be able to use this unless the opponent is somewhat incompetent)

So, out of a grand total 30 actions, you get to use 16 of them, 8 of which has an associated skill. Make of that what you will.

[Tarislar]

So other that Stun Track, what makes Willpower so important for Rigging ?


Okay, so make Logic the "Maxed" Attribute, got it.

Good Lst of Skills there.  I really like all the repair type skills but I'm also thinking most of that could be handled by picking up a Mechanic as a Contact at Char Gen & I can pick those skills up later if there isn't enough room.

So as far as "Group Skill" Points go, it looks like Electronics is first w/ a maybe for Fire Arms for when your not rigging.

Thanks all, this has been very helpful.

[Csjarrat]

Willpower resists biofeedback damage so if you're in hot sim, you want some ability to resist it.
Reaction is your primary stat, it works with all your piloting skills. There are times you won't be jumped in (when controlling your recon fleet in AR for example) so you won't have your control rig boosts to fall back on.
Engineering group is damn handy for repairing your stuff, but you can ditch them and dump your free contact points into a well connected and loyal mechanic as a fall back if you can't stretch your skill points out.

Logic works for all your secondary skills like engineering and such, so don't take it at less than 3.
You'll be doing a lot of perception tests so make sure your intuition is at a decent level too.
Remember specialisations are a cheap way to boost a dice pool, pilot watercraft at 1 with an appropriate spec is cheaper and better than watercraft 3

[Tarislar]

Okay, thanks, I thought that might be the reason for the Will.

Do Smartgun Links help Rigger Weapons ?  I mean on Drones & on Vehicles ?   Or is it only good for when your directly shooting someone w/ your pistol ?

[Csjarrat]

Smartgun is fine on drone weapons, you just need to put a smartlink in the drones' sensor suite to mimic the one you'd have in your cybereyes/glasses.
It'd probably just give the +1 bonus as it isn't implanted but you'd still get all the other bonuses too.

[martinchaen]

There are times you won't be jumped in (when controlling your recon fleet in AR for example) so you won't have your control rig boosts to fall back on.

I'm not sure this necessarily needs to be true; between being jumped in and drones operating autonomously, I honestly don't feel like Command (whether through AR or VR) needs to have a place.

It is perfectly viable to act as a fully VR immersed rigger, in my opinion.

Smartgun is fine on drone weapons, you just need to put a smartlink in the drones' sensor suite to mimic the one you'd have in your cybereyes/glasses.
It'd probably just give the +1 bonus as it isn't implanted but you'd still get all the other bonuses too.

Debatable; up to GM, but I agree with Csjarrat, and I have yet to meet a GM who won't allow a drone and/or jumped-in rigger the benefit of a smartgun system.

[DigitalZombie]

Agree with Csjarrat. The smart firing platform on page 433 is able to use smartlinked smartguns, so I guesss its the same with mobile drones.

Gunnery (can be used with Logic if Sensor Targeting is used; this is NOT an optional rule, and should require absolutely no clearing with GM first)
Sneaking (used with Intuition according to the core book)

Well, I still think it would be a good idea to make sure the GM has the same understanding of how gunnery works as the player. It seems to me that JimmyCrisis for instance might be using logic for more than just sensor assisted targeting. And he would be far from the only on on these boards to play it that way.

I would normally myself ignore the part where the rulebook states that infiltrate+intuition is used for sneaking. and go with agility+sneaking myself. Because I cant see the reason why in meatspace you would use agility for those 17+ skills linked to agility. But when controlling your drone youd use 16 of those skills with agility, and ONLY sneaking with intuition... that seems counterintuitive to me. But talk to your GM to see of he/she would rule it before play.

[martinchaen]

Because I cant see the reason why in meatspace you would use agility for those 17+ skills linked to agility.

That's not the case, though. Sneaking is the only skill that, according to the book, uses intuition. Gunnery, when used with sensor based targeting (which imposes a -3 dice pool penalty when attacking metahumans, by the way), uses logic. These are, as far as I'm aware, the only exceptions to the general rules. Every other skill, for all intents and purposes, still use their linked attribute.

Also, riggers are already getting squeezed on priorities, and adding another priority attribute for them seems unecessary, to my mind. Between necessitating above-average Logic, Intuition, Willpower, and Reaction, several skills, and obscene resource expenditures, it simply is, in my opinion, unbalanced to further require above-average agility and body in order for a character to be a competent rigger.

I'm strongly opposed to even the way Reaction is needed, with the argument being that the "motor cortex" is the same whether driving in meatspace or VR. To me, that's an argument that makes little real world sense (ask any neurologist about how the motor cortex works), and it really doesn't make balance sense as far as I see it, so why "punish" an archetype that is already difficult to play by making it even more so?

In any case, riggers using intuition for sneaking and logic for gunnery shouldn't be a fluff decision, but a game balance one, to my mind. The rules are fairly clear on these two skills as far as the core rulebook states it, anyway. We'll see what happens when the team gets around to a second round of errata.