Shadowrun

Catalyst Game Labs => Catalyst's Shadowrun Products => Topic started by: TranqFrollman on <12-27-10/1344:40>

Title: What the hell?
Post by: TranqFrollman on <12-27-10/1344:40>
Quote from: NotMe
So the shovelware cycle continues at Catalyst. I am going to need a lot of mead to review any of it, because the "File Dump" structure is apparently going to be not only standard in upcoming works but sold as a feature.

In the near future Jason plans to release Artifacts Unbound, Jet Set, Conspiracy Theories, Corporate Adventures, and "more". These books will be compiled out of a series of ~5000 word essays by different authors who may or may not be talking to each other - each of which is about some vague topic and presents "possible adventure and plot ideas" that a GM might want to fit into their campaign. In short: someone convinced Jason that the White Wolf Time of Judgement books were a great idea.

So buckle up and wait for things to get extremely stupid. Each book is going to present alternate and wholly incompatible progressions of the metaplot that are not discussed amongst the writing staff or checked against the history that Shadowrun has. So internal contradictions are basically impossible to avoid with the way Jason is acting as developer, so he has given up even trying to not have them. From now on: internal contradictions are a feature because he's putting the power to resolve them in the hands of the game master (because he is too fucking lazy to notice or fix them himself).

Furthermore, Jason has totally thrown in the towel as regards to keeping Shadowrun history straight. From this point forwards, the Shadows of XXX books are off the required reading list for authors of upcoming books. But don't worry, Jason has also thrown in the towel as regards to keeping Shadowrun rules straight - the secondary core books are off the required reading list too. So for example, the people who write Artifacts Unbound are not expected to have read or be able to reference Street Magic, let alone Ancient History's artifact guide (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Artifex.htm).

It's not just that the books are going to be a file dump of incoherent postulates, it's that in addition to being roughly 120,000 words of wild speculation no more interesting or official than a forum discussion about where the plot might go, they will also be written by people whose knowledge of Shadowrun begins and ends at the SR4A Core Book and the atrocious Sixth World Almanac.

Yeah: and the big reveal for Artifacts Unbound: the artifacts are Dragon Balls. If you put them together you get powerful one-off magic effects, but then the artifacts fly away and hide themselves again. I'm not making that up.

By the way, I would send letters of complaint by mail to:

      Topps Incorporated
      One Whitehall Street
      New York, NY 10004
      USA
Emphasis mine.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Semerkhet on <12-27-10/1413:49>
Having read both Frank's post and the leaked document for "Artifacts Unbound" I agree that what is *not* listed in the References section is pretty troubling.  I can only hope that there is a taken-for-granted reading list that all freelancers are expected to be familiar with.  Unless I see an official CGL freelancer's required reading list I can't just take Frank's statement
Quote
"From this point forwards, the Shadows of XXX books are off the required reading list for authors of upcoming books."
as unvarnished truth.

Frank paints the worst case scenario, as per usual.  Although if he's right about the "Dragonball" thing about the artifacts gathered in the DotA series I will be, to say the least, disappointed.  I've read Ancient History's draft for Harlequin's Gambit and I like it.  If the current writers don't tie the DotA artifacts into a bigger picture, I'll just skip "Artifacts Unbound" and finish developing Mr. Derie's draft for my own use.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: TranqFrollman on <12-27-10/1502:24>
I can only hope that there is a taken-for-granted reading list that all freelancers are expected to be familiar with.
Considering the number of writers without previous Shadowrun ties taken in recently, I doubt it can be expected implicitly.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-27-10/1504:04>
As usual, Frank and his sock puppets don't present all the facts, and they make wild assumptions based on very little information.

Bobby, of course, posts the latest leaked information (3 days, not bad turn around time there guys, though a little slow.  I figured this would be posted by Christmas afternoon)...  But, I note he doesn't quite post all of it.  And one of the points on the second page that wasn't transcripted into PDF specifically deals with one of Frank's comments:  That the writers will be expected to communicate and work with each other to make sure the entire thing fits together.

But, to answer the general point of this...  Referenced Reading listed in Bobby's PDF is the Almanac and all of the SR4 "Place books" (RUnner Havens, Feral Cities, etc).  Street Magic isn't listed because, as freelancers, we all assume that the core SR4 rulebooks are included in that.  Common sense and all that.  

And this is why these "leaks" are annoying.  They're presented with little secondary information, they're incomplete, and they're presented with commentary not backed up by fact.  

Also...  We really would like to do more general bandying about of these projects on the freelancer list.  So we can fact check each other better.  But when we can;t even brainstorm or spitball ideas without them getting posted online and blown way the frag out of proportion, it severely hampers what we can do and how much double checking those of us with more extensive background knowledge of Shadowrun can actually to do help.  War didn't get bounced off all the freelancers for this reason, and with a bit more time, some of us could have caught and commented on some of the problems in there.  Attitude's getting a bit better treatment, but still it's limited because none of the authors want to see their rough drafts posted online.

So, yeah, what the hell indeed.  

Bull
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Kot on <12-27-10/1512:18>
So, give all those unhappy SR fan-experts a way to help with stuff if they want, under a NDA agreement. This way you both get what you want - CGL a better product, and the fans their beloved Shadowrun...
Maybe something like RedBrick's Open Call, or 'which way should Shadowrun go' polls?
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Critias on <12-27-10/1515:51>
So, give all those unhappy SR fan-experts a way to help with stuff if they want, under a NDA agreement. This way you both get what you want - CGL a better product, and the fans their beloved Shadowrun...
Maybe something like RedBrick's Open Call, or 'which way should Shadowrun go' polls?
Anyone that wants to can approach Jason for a job.  The guy's easy enough to get ahold of, and willing to give you a shot and let you in on an upcoming project spec (to submit a proposal just like everyone else).  That proposal may or may not be the one selected, but anyone who wants in on the process can get in on the process.  Hell, I got started just by tossing him a PM.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Semerkhet on <12-27-10/1519:03>
As usual, Frank and his sock puppets don't present all the facts, and they make wild assumptions based on very little information.
 Not helpful language.  I consider Frank to write in a very entertaining style and after you correct for his hyperbole and biases he actually provides some very insightful commentary.  Does that make me one of his sock puppets?  I certainly don't take what he writes as gospel, as I hope my first post in this topic shows.  

Bobby, of course, posts the latest leaked information (3 days, not bad turn around time there guys, though a little slow.  I figured this would be posted by Christmas afternoon)...  But, I note he doesn't quite post all of it.  And one of the points on the second page that wasn't transcripted into PDF specifically deals with one of Frank's comments:  That the writers will be expected to communicate and work with each other to make sure the entire thing fits together.
It hurts Mr. Derie's credibility that he did not post the entirety of the document, assuming that whoever leaked it to him didn't do that bit of editing before handing it over.

But, to answer the general point of this...  Referenced Reading listed in Bobby's PDF is the Almanac and all of the SR4 "Place books" (RUnner Havens, Feral Cities, etc).  Street Magic isn't listed because, as freelancers, we all assume that the core SR4 rulebooks are included in that.  Common sense and all that.

This is what I presumed and it hurts Frank's credibility that he made such a big deal over this particular point.

Also...  We really would like to do more general bandying about of these projects on the freelancer list.  So we can fact check each other better.  But when we can;t even brainstorm or spitball ideas without them getting posted online and blown way the frag out of proportion, it severely hampers what we can do and how much double checking those of us with more extensive background knowledge of Shadowrun can actually to do help.  War didn't get bounced off all the freelancers for this reason, and with a bit more time, some of us could have caught and commented on some of the problems in there.  Attitude's getting a bit better treatment, but still it's limited because none of the authors want to see their rough drafts posted online.

Okay, so you know that there are going to be leaks during the development process.  That's unfortunate.  Even more unfortunate if documents are posted incomplete or out of context.  Still, I am of the opinion that circling the wagons is the wrong response to this problem.  You are pretty much acknowledging that War! didn't get the "eyes" on it that it needed because of precisely this wagon-circling.  I think you guys need to just suck it up and be prepared for the Internets to freak out periodically about your (the freelancers) collective work-in-progress.  These leaks are *not* going away in the near-to-mid term and if you let that push you (again, collectively) into adopting practices that result in inferior products...well, that just seems like a express train to Bads-ville.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Semerkhet on <12-27-10/1524:36>
So, give all those unhappy SR fan-experts a way to help with stuff if they want, under a NDA agreement. This way you both get what you want - CGL a better product, and the fans their beloved Shadowrun...
Maybe something like RedBrick's Open Call, or 'which way should Shadowrun go' polls?
Anyone that wants to can approach Jason for a job.  The guy's easy enough to get ahold of, and willing to give you a shot and let you in on an upcoming project spec (to submit a proposal just like everyone else).  That proposal may or may not be the one selected, but anyone who wants in on the process can get in on the process.  Hell, I got started just by tossing him a PM.
I am going to PM Jason to offer my services as a proofreader.  I'm not one who has completely written off CGL and is just waiting for them to fail and lose the license.  That seems counter-productive.  If I am able to help, I will. 
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Kot on <12-27-10/1526:31>
Critas, i didn't mean 'job', just 'fan-help'. As in for free, because they want to be a part of the process of making Shadowrun, and making it better.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: TranqFrollman on <12-27-10/1528:07>
Also...  We really would like to do more general bandying about of these projects on the freelancer list.  So we can fact check each other better.  But when we can;t even brainstorm or spitball ideas without them getting posted online and blown way the frag out of proportion, it severely hampers what we can do and how much double checking those of us with more extensive background knowledge of Shadowrun can actually to do help.  War didn't get bounced off all the freelancers for this reason, and with a bit more time, some of us could have caught and commented on some of the problems in there.  Attitude's getting a bit better treatment, but still it's limited because none of the authors want to see their rough drafts posted online.

So, yeah, what the hell indeed.  
Actually, if conversation in "The Champagne Room" suggested that things were going well (such as ... problems getting caught before release), no one would bother to leak anything.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Critias on <12-27-10/1530:31>
Actually, if conversation in "The Champagne Room" suggested that things were going well (such as ... problems getting caught before release), no one would bother to leak anything.
Nice.  Defending leaked partial conversations with a leaked partial conversation. 
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: TranqFrollman on <12-27-10/1539:56>
Nice.  Defending leaked partial conversations with a leaked partial conversation. 
I'm just saying that if any of an extremely long list of errors in War! had been caught and corrected in sight of whoever leaks stuff, that person would likely be happy and see no reason to leak anything. The same can still apply to forthcoming books, contrary to Bull's belief.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-27-10/1640:13>
@Semerkhet:  No, not helpful language.  But since whoever "TranqFrollman" is pretty much created his account, choose his name, and only posts here to stir up crap, I don't particularly feel like I'm under any obligation to humor him, or even be all that polite to him.  I'm not particularly fond of anyone who is willing to takes shots at people behind a pseudonym, either.  Nor people who will sign an NDA, pretend to be a part of a team, and then undercut that team by leaking information solely to undermine and undercut that teams efforts.  And at this point, I believe that everyone still around has signed an NDA.

But, one thing I haven't seen noted by any of the "Leaks" yet is the fact that several of the freelancers, myself included, have said that we don't give a rats ass about he leaks.  It just looks petty and stupid to most of the internet population that's paying any attention, and is completely irrelevant to the vast majority of Shadowrun fans and players out there since the internet fanbase is a small minority of SR fans.   My thoughts for a months now have been "Eh, whatever.  Ignore it, it shouldn't effect us."

But still, it's tough to work in that environment.  And not everyone is comfortable with it, especially some of the freelancers who've done work for other companies where current (and former) freelancers act a whole lot more professionally.

Bull
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Ancient History on <12-27-10/1720:56>
Bobby, of course, posts the latest leaked information (3 days, not bad turn around time there guys, though a little slow.  I figured this would be posted by Christmas afternoon)...
For what it's worth, Bullock, I didn't post jack shit. I tend to follow that particular scribd account because they uploaded a bunch of my stuff, and I find it useful to link to items on it from time to time. Despite some of Jason's allegations, I don't make a habit of spoilering material about upcoming products (the fact that shit I was working on still constitute "upcoming products" is something else to reflect on).
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Mystic on <12-27-10/1742:56>
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

Seriously, does anyone think that this will do any good in the long run? Are the developres at CGL suddenly going to go "you know, you're right...we suck, we're ruining Shadowrun/Battletech and as of now, we're going to quit." All the personal attacks are doing is making the attackers look immature at best and unprofessional at worse. All it will accomplish is to create an schism between the fandom and developers, one of "us versus them" rather than one of cooperation with little chance of improvement. Not to mention how it is damaging the Shadowrun reputation with Topps and the gaming comunity in general.  

Ultimately, it is the job of the developers to determine how a product will go, for better or worse. If they screw it up, eventually they will replaced; that's the nature of business. And this IS a business, period. Ultimately, all we can do is support the product if we believe in it, good AND bad. Because if we don't, someone higher up may ultimately decide that our product is not worth the effort to produce.

But then what do I know. Just my .00568 cents (after taxes).
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-27-10/1744:55>
My apologies then, Bobby.  I assumed that the scribd account was yours.  

*sigh*  I know better than to get involved with this stuff, and I'm letting my irritation with this situation (And a pile of real life stress) cloud my judgement.  I should have stayed out of it and stayed silent, I suppose.

I just find it incredibly irritating to find things I (and others) say or post in private (And despite claims to the contrary, places like the freelancer forums/mailing list and the Champaign Room are supposed to be private) getting scrutinized and commented on publicly, especially when at least half the time it's taken out of context.

Like I said, I was under the belief that the Scrib account was yours, so if it's not, you have my apologies for mispeaking there.

Bull

Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Semerkhet on <12-27-10/1818:10>
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.  I absolutely guarantee you that if there had been an internet in the late '70s and early '80s that there would have been epic flame wars attacking Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax over the direction they were taking D&D.  Chainmail loyalists would have cursed Gygax for taking the focus off of the miniatures, and on and on. 

My point is there were no good old days and human nature hasn't changed a bit.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Chaemera on <12-27-10/1832:45>
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.  I absolutely guarantee you that if there had been an internet in the late '70s and early '80s that there would have been epic flame wars attacking Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax over the direction they were taking D&D.  Chainmail loyalists would have cursed Gygax for taking the focus off of the miniatures, and on and on. 

My point is there were no good old days and human nature hasn't changed a bit.

Isn't that what local hobby / comic shops used to be for? While complaining has always been part of the give and take of business, as Semerkhet says, the volume has gone up, and the quality down. It used to be that to get an audience of hundreds or thousands, you had to make your point persuasively enough to convince others to spread your message. Now, just hop on DS or this forum and rant. You don't need substance (as noted by the OP, no offense to his fans, but that rant was lacking, sorely), or even persuasion.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: wraith on <12-27-10/1954:51>
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.

Seriously, does anyone think that this will do any good in the long run? Are the developres at CGL suddenly going to go "you know, you're right...we suck, we're ruining Shadowrun/Battletech and as of now, we're going to quit." All the personal attacks are doing is making the attackers look immature at best and unprofessional at worse. All it will accomplish is to create an schism between the fandom and developers, one of "us versus them" rather than one of cooperation with little chance of improvement. Not to mention how it is damaging the Shadowrun reputation with Topps and the gaming comunity in general.  

Ultimately, it is the job of the developers to determine how a product will go, for better or worse. If they screw it up, eventually they will replaced; that's the nature of business. And this IS a business, period. Ultimately, all we can do is support the product if we believe in it, good AND bad. Because if we don't, someone higher up may ultimately decide that our product is not worth the effort to produce.

But then what do I know. Just my .00568 cents (after taxes).

I can't speak for the hardcore anti-Catalyst folks, because frankly I'm not up on their issues.  But what I'm reading here seems like the reason for so much backchatter where War! is concerned is because a lot of the early-adopter folks who picked up the .pdf at release see problems they'd really like to see corrected before the hardcopy print.  I don't think there's anyone bothering to post about SR on the forums here that doesn't like the game and want more good stuff for it, after all!   ;D
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: FastJack on <12-27-10/2017:32>
Too true, wraith. Fanbases are notorious for love/hate relationships.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Mystic on <12-28-10/0007:30>
Too true, wraith. Fanbases are notorious for love/hate relationships.

I know it comes with the territory, but every now and again it gets a bit..irritating. I am also a Star Wars and Star Trek fan. Yeah, no fanbase issues THERE.

And I know it is wishful thinking, but it would be nice to get away from that here. And for the most part this and the BT forums are relatively "fanboyism free" and for that I am grateful. It just leaves a bad taste in my mouth when I see people, who in my not so humble opinion are going out of their way to trash something because they "dont like the direction" things are going and or out of sour grapes.

Constructive critisism is one thing, and should always be welcome, especially when there is a need. The internet has been a blessing and a curse for just about anything. A great way for supporters to well...support, and vice versa...ohhh how vice versa.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: ssjevot on <12-28-10/0052:19>
I think the problem is a lot of people just have axes to grind, and honestly don't care if Shadowrun improves so much as wanting CGL to suffer and possibly go out of business.  I personally want more Shadowrun products and just want to see a return to the quality we're used to in regard to the proofreading issue specifically.  I'd be more forgiving if errata were released at a more regular interval, but I'm wondering if I'll ever see errata for Sixth World Almanac, let alone War!.  I actually think the content of these books are good though, and I've read this review by Frank Trollman and honestly he goes through with such a fine toothed comb that almost any Shadowrun location sourcebook of comparable style (e.g. Corporate Enclaves, Runner's Havens) could be made to sound horrible.  They're not horrible, and neither is War!, the only real problem is the lack of proofreading, and I feel that might be falling on deaf ears due to all the people who just want to burn CGL to the ground.

I want to continue buying CGL Shadowrun products, but I also want proofreading and errata to get some attention.  Sixth World Almanac was a good product that could have been great without errors, and War! is an okay product that could have been decent without errors.  I legitimately think CGL can improve their books, and by making it sound like they're destroying Shadowrun you're not exactly encouraging them to improve the quality of their products.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Mystic on <12-28-10/0141:40>
Very true, not to mention it can make it more difficult to attract new talent. If I knew I was going to constantly get blasted and my work nitpicked above and beyond, why should I bother when I could go somewhere else?
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Semerkhet on <12-28-10/0938:11>
Very true, not to mention it can make it more difficult to attract new talent. If I knew I was going to constantly get blasted and my work nitpicked above and beyond, why should I bother when I could go somewhere else?
I wouldn't let the rantings of a few people who very openly wish for the demise of the company stop me from writing for the benefit of the thousands of fans that just want to see good Shadowrun products.  I don't understand this exaggerated empowerment of Frank Trollman, et al, by ascribing him outsized influence over the fan base.  I agree with some of Frank's analysis and he wears his bias on his sleeve but he is one voice.  The authors of War! could have looked at the first few reviews or the first couple pages of the War! topic at DS and gotten a good idea of what needed to be fixed.  There is no need for them to wade through the subsequent sixteen pages of ranting.  Let it run its course; its cathartic.  In fact, I think that is what most of the authors are doing.

I guess I'm saying that everyone needs a thicker skin for their internet interactions.  I will not claim immunity from taking offense sometimes but I try hard to delay in replying to a post that annoys me until the initial wave of indignation can pass.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Kot on <12-28-10/1105:49>
I think the problem is a lot of people just have axes to grind, and honestly don't care if Shadowrun improves so much as wanting CGL to suffer and possibly go out of business. 
And that would be the end of SR. No company would pick up a game with that kin of problems, fearing both reception, and sales.
As for me, i can't decide. I have Vice and 6th World Almanac, but they're on reading queue for the moment, so i can't say i like/hate it. Maybe when i read them, i'll have an opinion on the directions SR4 has taken.
I've been a huge Earthdawn fan, but what RedBrick is doing is basically pumping the fanbase of ED for money with minimal effort, by releasing old content with not enough changes in both rules and storyline/setting. I hope that will change, when they start to release books like Kratas, or maybe with Cathay. But for me, there's nothing in those re-done books - I've already seen them all. With Shadowrun, that's not the case. Everything i read is new...
But i still see Shadowrun was crippled. All those great freelancers who were creating something new are gone, and some of them even oppose everything CGL does on principle. This is wrong. I don't really care who 'did it'. Because that won't help - they won't call a truce, nor go back to the way it was.
Again - i don't have any opinion on the 'current SR', but i deeply regret it's not the same Shadowrun I saw in the 20th Anniversary rulebook, or Street Magic/Arsenal/Unwired/Runner's Companion.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Crimsondude on <12-29-10/1106:00>
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.

I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.

Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.

The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).

Now I am a Shadowrun freelancer.

Ho Ho Ho
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Semerkhet on <12-29-10/1120:51>
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.

I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.

Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.

The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).

I was more referring to even earlier than AOL and GEnie but I take your point.  However, you remind me that I did, in fact, receive a draft manuscript of "Shadowbeat" from Paul Hume via GEnie.  We printed it out and read it and used it in our games.  Never occurred to us to go back on-line and nit-pick the bits we didn't like.  Of course, I was an enthusiastic 18-year-old fan-boy at that point whose only sin was being a bit of a munchkin.  Not the cynical 39-year-old sitting at work between Xmas and NYE pretending to be busy.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: wraith on <12-29-10/1304:39>
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.

I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.

Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.

The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).

Now I am a Shadowrun freelancer.

Ho Ho Ho


It makes an interesting comparison to the folks over at Paizo, and their recently released Advanced Player's Guide.  The book adds a lot of additional rules, including four more base classes, to the game... classes which were released six months earlier in late Beta form for public playtest, then revised before publication based on player commentary.

Their whole philosophy is centered around getting people to play and think about the game first and foremost.  I'm not saying that Catalyst would benefit by being as open with their game development, but given the number of things that just the vocal folks here on the board can turn up within a few days of release, a bit of beta testing might be called for.  Heck, get Bull to put it in Missions.   ;D
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Crossbow on <12-29-10/2123:40>
Maybe the subject here should be Why the hell?

As in why the hell it matters so much?

I am obviously coming in at the middle of this story, I know nothing about any bad blood between creators and I am not about to try and wade into the Dumpshock pool to find out.

There is a reason WOTC never acknowledges the existence of leaks outside of legal action.  The leak is a violation of law, either privacy or NDA or copyright, they shouldn't have to.  We can debate it all we want to in private, but there is no reason to acknowledge criminal behavior.  I can appriciate the access to the creators that I can enjoy with Catalyst, but there is a limit and that has to be respected.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Otakusensei on <12-30-10/1405:15>
Maybe the subject here should be Why the hell?

As in why the hell it matters so much?

I am obviously coming in at the middle of this story, I know nothing about any bad blood between creators and I am not about to try and wade into the Dumpshock pool to find out.

There is a reason WOTC never acknowledges the existence of leaks outside of legal action.  The leak is a violation of law, either privacy or NDA or copyright, they shouldn't have to.  We can debate it all we want to in private, but there is no reason to acknowledge criminal behavior.  I can appriciate the access to the creators that I can enjoy with Catalyst, but there is a limit and that has to be respected.


All you really need to know from the DS threads is that CGL got into a lot of trouble because they were taking too long to pay some of their freelancers and artists; in some cases years.  While at the same time they were pumping out books at a really slow pace.  That prompted someone to leak documents which lead to some accusations that the owner of the company had embezzled a ton of money from the company over a number of years.  Management acknowledged a problem, refrained from publishing specifics and circled the wagons to start a process of totally revamping the business infrastructure; document retention, financial management, communication, the works.  During that time a number of employees and freelancers who did a huge amount of really stellar work on Shadowrun left, mostly stating personal reasons, or were asked by the current development staff not to come back.  There is still a lot of bad blood on that subject, so you'll have to check the threads if you want details of that.  The current team had some books still in development and work coming down the pipeline, some of which they had the change because of lost freelancers taking their work with them.

That was mostly last year.  In the intervening time CGL has worked through the better part of the back log with books like Corp Guide and Sixth World Almanac.  War! really represents the first book that the current CGL has taken from an idea to an executed product.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-30-10/1449:35>
Honestly?  Not really.  War! has been in the pipeline for at least three years, going back to Peter Taylor's stint as Line Dev.  When I threw my hat back into freelancing almost 2 years ago, while John Dunn was co-Developing the line, the book was being planned out.  For example, the Bogota focus of the book was planned out as far back as Origins 2009, because I remember talking with a couple of authors who were working on sections or interested in working on sections. (Which was a couple months before Jason was hired as Line Dev). 

It got tweaked some, and lot of the final writing was done under Jason, but, yeah...  We're still working behind, unfortunately. 

Attitude was conceived by John Dunn, I believe (I remember hearing about it at a dinner with him back in April of 2009), but it was little more than an idea on the table for a future project at the time.  The project spec and everything for that was done under Jason.  I'd say Attitude is really the first book that Jasons really getting the chance to develop from the ground up that doesn't have a lot of baggage from previous developers and writers.

Bull
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Otakusensei on <12-30-10/2018:37>
Honestly?  Not really.  War! has been in the pipeline for at least three years, going back to Peter Taylor's stint as Line Dev.  When I threw my hat back into freelancing almost 2 years ago, while John Dunn was co-Developing the line, the book was being planned out.  For example, the Bogota focus of the book was planned out as far back as Origins 2009, because I remember talking with a couple of authors who were working on sections or interested in working on sections. (Which was a couple months before Jason was hired as Line Dev). 

It got tweaked some, and lot of the final writing was done under Jason, but, yeah...  We're still working behind, unfortunately. 

Attitude was conceived by John Dunn, I believe (I remember hearing about it at a dinner with him back in April of 2009), but it was little more than an idea on the table for a future project at the time.  The project spec and everything for that was done under Jason.  I'd say Attitude is really the first book that Jasons really getting the chance to develop from the ground up that doesn't have a lot of baggage from previous developers and writers.

Bull
Jason was announced as line dev back in September of 2009.  I know the product cycle is pretty slow at CGL, but how much time does he really need to put his mark on the game?
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-30-10/2124:18>
Considering that there was a three month period where everything came to a screeching halt back in March as CGL, and then massive rewrites needing to be done, then we hit convention season, which means almost no one gets anything done as that eats up everyone's focus for a couple months?  Then stuff needed rewritten because a couple authors left and didn't want Catalyst to use their work...

I'm not saying he hasn't put his mark on things.  Just saying that there's a lot of stuff that he inherited that he's been trying to work through.  There's been a serous backlog of product for 3 years now that started while Peter was still developer, and was compounded several times by changeover in developer (Which slows things for a couple months each time as the new developer gets up to speed and learns the ropes.  Before Jason we had John Dunn, Jennifer Harding, and Adam Jury all acting as temporary co-developers).  As a fan and a freelancer it's been incredibly frustrating for a very, very long time.  Most of the books released year should have been out at least a year earlier, if not before then.

Basically, shit rolls downhill.  And is intercepting a lot of shit that's been sliding downhill for a couple years.  I'd love to see things handled better and smoother, but not knowing all the crap he has to deal with I don't know if it can be handled any better. (Other than the stuff I'm constantly pestering him about for Missions, of course, like getting adventure seeds approved and contracts generated and the like.)

Bull
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Crimsondude on <12-30-10/2222:27>
SR has had five line developers in six years. I think that might have some effect on the current one's job.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Otakusensei on <12-30-10/2228:58>
Granted.  But how long can things really go on like this?  Fans have been asked to wait and see for a long time.  Now we've had a bit of product to see and we're still being asked to wait and have faith, still hearing about how there hasn't been enough time.  You know I don't have any faith in CGL as a company, but it's starting to get to the point where I'm sure people who want to support CGL are asking themselves questions.  Especially with errors like you see in War! and a general decline in proofing quality.  At this point the issues seem more like a fixture of the company and less like something that's getting worked through to a resolution.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Dread Moores on <12-30-10/2258:26>
Especially with errors like you see in War! and a general decline in proofing quality.  At this point the issues seem more like a fixture of the company and less like something that's getting worked through to a resolution.

I'd need a bit more of a pattern for it to start looking like a fixture at the company. Though to be fair and transparent in the conversation, I've largely been away from SR for the better part of a year and a half. I purchased Corp Guide and SWA back when they came out, but haven't looked over them yet. (Due largely to the fact that I was just taking a break from SR, and gaming in general; that's not a comment on the quality of the books, as I haven't looked at them yet.) WAR! has been my first book that I've read since coming back around. If there's some similar issues with Attitude, I might be a bit more pattern recognition oriented.*

*I'm specifically referencing the editing issues here, as the gear from WAR! will see little use in my campaigns, or the setting of Bogota. Honestly, merc-related material doesn't see much use amongst my players. This was more a personal purchase to see the most recent edition's version of Fields of Fire.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Mäx on <12-31-10/0632:07>
I'd need a bit more of a pattern for it to start looking like a fixture at the company. Though to be fair and transparent in the conversation, I've largely been away from SR for the better part of a year and a half. I purchased Corp Guide and SWA back when they came out, but haven't looked over them yet.
The fact that you haven't yet read SWA might explain why your not seeing the pattern of declining quality in editing.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Dread Moores on <12-31-10/0959:25>
Very possibly. I sort of expected that though, considering what had happened around the time. And I've already bought them now, not much more to be done for it. I'll still have an eye for it, but my eye for such a pattern is more interested in the future products. :)
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-31-10/1217:41>
Do me a favor, check out Missions.  The new Missions FAQ (Available for Free) (http://www.battlecorps.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=28_187_215&products_id=2665) shows some of what we're hoping to do with things in the future.  The first Missions should roll out in the next few weeks, and that will be a free release as well.  While there's no new art in the FAQ, I think we pulled a couple really nice classic pieces to use, and Matt Heerdt, our Layout Guy, really pulled them together beautifully.  There will be new art in the SRM 04-00 Back in Business.  We're really trying to polish these up, make them look top notch and professional, plus make them solid, well rounded, and most of all fun adventures.  And a lot of the same people working on the design and layout and editing of these are working on the main product line as well. 

Trust me, concerns are heard, concerns are trying to be addressed moving forward.  Will everything be perfect?  No.  You can look over something a half dozen times, have a half dozen proofreaders eyeball it, and still have something minor slip through the cracks.  But the goal is to make those slips few, far between, and most importantly, very minor.  (In my case, because I rewrote some Missions documents from the earlier season of Missions that were written before SR4A, I find stamping out SR4 Page references to be like hunting cockroaches.  They just keep coming back!  I've become convinced that one document is actually reverting my text changes when I save, because I think I've changed the same page reference like 4 times :)).

Bull
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Dread Moores on <12-31-10/1432:59>
I've become convinced that one document is actually reverting my text changes when I save, because I think I've changed the same page reference like 4 times :)).

Bull

No, that was just me...I've said too much.
Title: Re: What the hell?
Post by: Bull on <12-31-10/1533:07>
*shakes fist*  Damn you!!!! :)