So the shovelware cycle continues at Catalyst. I am going to need a lot of mead to review any of it, because the "File Dump" structure is apparently going to be not only standard in upcoming works but sold as a feature.Emphasis mine.
In the near future Jason plans to release Artifacts Unbound, Jet Set, Conspiracy Theories, Corporate Adventures, and "more". These books will be compiled out of a series of ~5000 word essays by different authors who may or may not be talking to each other - each of which is about some vague topic and presents "possible adventure and plot ideas" that a GM might want to fit into their campaign. In short: someone convinced Jason that the White Wolf Time of Judgement books were a great idea.
So buckle up and wait for things to get extremely stupid. Each book is going to present alternate and wholly incompatible progressions of the metaplot that are not discussed amongst the writing staff or checked against the history that Shadowrun has. So internal contradictions are basically impossible to avoid with the way Jason is acting as developer, so he has given up even trying to not have them. From now on: internal contradictions are a feature because he's putting the power to resolve them in the hands of the game master (because he is too fucking lazy to notice or fix them himself).
Furthermore, Jason has totally thrown in the towel as regards to keeping Shadowrun history straight. From this point forwards, the Shadows of XXX books are off the required reading list for authors of upcoming books. But don't worry, Jason has also thrown in the towel as regards to keeping Shadowrun rules straight - the secondary core books are off the required reading list too. So for example, the people who write Artifacts Unbound are not expected to have read or be able to reference Street Magic, let alone Ancient History's artifact guide (http://ancientfiles.dumpshock.com/Artifex.htm).
It's not just that the books are going to be a file dump of incoherent postulates, it's that in addition to being roughly 120,000 words of wild speculation no more interesting or official than a forum discussion about where the plot might go, they will also be written by people whose knowledge of Shadowrun begins and ends at the SR4A Core Book and the atrocious Sixth World Almanac.
Yeah: and the big reveal for Artifacts Unbound: the artifacts are Dragon Balls. If you put them together you get powerful one-off magic effects, but then the artifacts fly away and hide themselves again. I'm not making that up.
By the way, I would send letters of complaint by mail to:
Topps Incorporated
One Whitehall Street
New York, NY 10004
USA
"From this point forwards, the Shadows of XXX books are off the required reading list for authors of upcoming books."as unvarnished truth.
I can only hope that there is a taken-for-granted reading list that all freelancers are expected to be familiar with.Considering the number of writers without previous Shadowrun ties taken in recently, I doubt it can be expected implicitly.
So, give all those unhappy SR fan-experts a way to help with stuff if they want, under a NDA agreement. This way you both get what you want - CGL a better product, and the fans their beloved Shadowrun...Anyone that wants to can approach Jason for a job. The guy's easy enough to get ahold of, and willing to give you a shot and let you in on an upcoming project spec (to submit a proposal just like everyone else). That proposal may or may not be the one selected, but anyone who wants in on the process can get in on the process. Hell, I got started just by tossing him a PM.
Maybe something like RedBrick's Open Call, or 'which way should Shadowrun go' polls?
As usual, Frank and his sock puppets don't present all the facts, and they make wild assumptions based on very little information.Not helpful language. I consider Frank to write in a very entertaining style and after you correct for his hyperbole and biases he actually provides some very insightful commentary. Does that make me one of his sock puppets? I certainly don't take what he writes as gospel, as I hope my first post in this topic shows.
Bobby, of course, posts the latest leaked information (3 days, not bad turn around time there guys, though a little slow. I figured this would be posted by Christmas afternoon)... But, I note he doesn't quite post all of it. And one of the points on the second page that wasn't transcripted into PDF specifically deals with one of Frank's comments: That the writers will be expected to communicate and work with each other to make sure the entire thing fits together.It hurts Mr. Derie's credibility that he did not post the entirety of the document, assuming that whoever leaked it to him didn't do that bit of editing before handing it over.
But, to answer the general point of this... Referenced Reading listed in Bobby's PDF is the Almanac and all of the SR4 "Place books" (RUnner Havens, Feral Cities, etc). Street Magic isn't listed because, as freelancers, we all assume that the core SR4 rulebooks are included in that. Common sense and all that.
Also... We really would like to do more general bandying about of these projects on the freelancer list. So we can fact check each other better. But when we can;t even brainstorm or spitball ideas without them getting posted online and blown way the frag out of proportion, it severely hampers what we can do and how much double checking those of us with more extensive background knowledge of Shadowrun can actually to do help. War didn't get bounced off all the freelancers for this reason, and with a bit more time, some of us could have caught and commented on some of the problems in there. Attitude's getting a bit better treatment, but still it's limited because none of the authors want to see their rough drafts posted online.
I am going to PM Jason to offer my services as a proofreader. I'm not one who has completely written off CGL and is just waiting for them to fail and lose the license. That seems counter-productive. If I am able to help, I will.So, give all those unhappy SR fan-experts a way to help with stuff if they want, under a NDA agreement. This way you both get what you want - CGL a better product, and the fans their beloved Shadowrun...Anyone that wants to can approach Jason for a job. The guy's easy enough to get ahold of, and willing to give you a shot and let you in on an upcoming project spec (to submit a proposal just like everyone else). That proposal may or may not be the one selected, but anyone who wants in on the process can get in on the process. Hell, I got started just by tossing him a PM.
Maybe something like RedBrick's Open Call, or 'which way should Shadowrun go' polls?
Also... We really would like to do more general bandying about of these projects on the freelancer list. So we can fact check each other better. But when we can;t even brainstorm or spitball ideas without them getting posted online and blown way the frag out of proportion, it severely hampers what we can do and how much double checking those of us with more extensive background knowledge of Shadowrun can actually to do help. War didn't get bounced off all the freelancers for this reason, and with a bit more time, some of us could have caught and commented on some of the problems in there. Attitude's getting a bit better treatment, but still it's limited because none of the authors want to see their rough drafts posted online.Actually, if conversation in "The Champagne Room" suggested that things were going well (such as ... problems getting caught before release), no one would bother to leak anything.
So, yeah, what the hell indeed.
Actually, if conversation in "The Champagne Room" suggested that things were going well (such as ... problems getting caught before release), no one would bother to leak anything.Nice. Defending leaked partial conversations with a leaked partial conversation.
Nice. Defending leaked partial conversations with a leaked partial conversation.I'm just saying that if any of an extremely long list of errors in War! had been caught and corrected in sight of whoever leaks stuff, that person would likely be happy and see no reason to leak anything. The same can still apply to forthcoming books, contrary to Bull's belief.
Bobby, of course, posts the latest leaked information (3 days, not bad turn around time there guys, though a little slow. I figured this would be posted by Christmas afternoon)...For what it's worth, Bullock, I didn't post jack shit. I tend to follow that particular scribd account because they uploaded a bunch of my stuff, and I find it useful to link to items on it from time to time. Despite some of Jason's allegations, I don't make a habit of spoilering material about upcoming products (the fact that shit I was working on still constitute "upcoming products" is something else to reflect on).
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent. I absolutely guarantee you that if there had been an internet in the late '70s and early '80s that there would have been epic flame wars attacking Dave Arneson and Gary Gygax over the direction they were taking D&D. Chainmail loyalists would have cursed Gygax for taking the focus off of the miniatures, and on and on.
My point is there were no good old days and human nature hasn't changed a bit.
Ah, I miss the days when people expressed dislike of a product by simply not buying it, and letting the market take it's course instead of spending time personally attacking those who make the product and spending a lot of time trying to convince everyone else why the product, and those who make it, "suck" by airing all the supposed "dirty laundry" and little secrets.
Seriously, does anyone think that this will do any good in the long run? Are the developres at CGL suddenly going to go "you know, you're right...we suck, we're ruining Shadowrun/Battletech and as of now, we're going to quit." All the personal attacks are doing is making the attackers look immature at best and unprofessional at worse. All it will accomplish is to create an schism between the fandom and developers, one of "us versus them" rather than one of cooperation with little chance of improvement. Not to mention how it is damaging the Shadowrun reputation with Topps and the gaming comunity in general.
Ultimately, it is the job of the developers to determine how a product will go, for better or worse. If they screw it up, eventually they will replaced; that's the nature of business. And this IS a business, period. Ultimately, all we can do is support the product if we believe in it, good AND bad. Because if we don't, someone higher up may ultimately decide that our product is not worth the effort to produce.
But then what do I know. Just my .00568 cents (after taxes).
Too true, wraith. Fanbases are notorious for love/hate relationships.
Very true, not to mention it can make it more difficult to attract new talent. If I knew I was going to constantly get blasted and my work nitpicked above and beyond, why should I bother when I could go somewhere else?I wouldn't let the rantings of a few people who very openly wish for the demise of the company stop me from writing for the benefit of the thousands of fans that just want to see good Shadowrun products. I don't understand this exaggerated empowerment of Frank Trollman, et al, by ascribing him outsized influence over the fan base. I agree with some of Frank's analysis and he wears his bias on his sleeve but he is one voice. The authors of War! could have looked at the first few reviews or the first couple pages of the War! topic at DS and gotten a good idea of what needed to be fixed. There is no need for them to wade through the subsequent sixteen pages of ranting. Let it run its course; its cathartic. In fact, I think that is what most of the authors are doing.
I think the problem is a lot of people just have axes to grind, and honestly don't care if Shadowrun improves so much as wanting CGL to suffer and possibly go out of business.And that would be the end of SR. No company would pick up a game with that kin of problems, fearing both reception, and sales.
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.
I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.
Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.
The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).
I would contend that the only reason it was like that back in the "day" was that fans had no public forum on which to express their discontent.Except when FASA had an official presence on GEnie, Prodigy, AOL, and a semi-official presence on the ShadowRN mailing list. AFAIK, FASA's Internet presence preceded Shadowrun.
You know, when they had the Star Trek license and all.
I don't appreciate things like having a private post be slapped online and commented upon, but I am only concerned about my initial reaction than any actual commentary on it. That's the beauty of being a current writer is that I really an audience of one to please. Not that I don't care about the customers; my writing philosophy (as I have mentioned on this forum) is solely concerned with how it helps them play their games.
Besides that, I find self-righteous anger at material to be rather counterproductive. As much as I bitched and moaned and wasted hours pontificating on why I wished I could dispublish a subchapter in System Failure, when I took my head out of my ass and actually worked it into a campaign, it was glorious. It was my magnum opus as a GM. I just want people to use what I write. I don't care if they subvert the entire intent of what I was writing. I guess it comes with my writing background that I expect and know that people will take what they want from the written word and bend and twist it to their liking, so I just want to make it worth incorporating into their games at all.
The entire playtest manuscript of Awakenings (then called the Neo-Anarchist's Guide to Magic) was released on the AOL RPG area's filehost months if not a year-plus before that book was released. So until that happens, I don't give a fuck about leaks. I did what Critias did (on his advice, actually).Now I am a Shadowrun freelancer.
Ho Ho Ho
Maybe the subject here should be Why the hell?
As in why the hell it matters so much?
I am obviously coming in at the middle of this story, I know nothing about any bad blood between creators and I am not about to try and wade into the Dumpshock pool to find out.
There is a reason WOTC never acknowledges the existence of leaks outside of legal action. The leak is a violation of law, either privacy or NDA or copyright, they shouldn't have to. We can debate it all we want to in private, but there is no reason to acknowledge criminal behavior. I can appriciate the access to the creators that I can enjoy with Catalyst, but there is a limit and that has to be respected.
Honestly? Not really. War! has been in the pipeline for at least three years, going back to Peter Taylor's stint as Line Dev. When I threw my hat back into freelancing almost 2 years ago, while John Dunn was co-Developing the line, the book was being planned out. For example, the Bogota focus of the book was planned out as far back as Origins 2009, because I remember talking with a couple of authors who were working on sections or interested in working on sections. (Which was a couple months before Jason was hired as Line Dev).Jason was announced as line dev back in September of 2009. I know the product cycle is pretty slow at CGL, but how much time does he really need to put his mark on the game?
It got tweaked some, and lot of the final writing was done under Jason, but, yeah... We're still working behind, unfortunately.
Attitude was conceived by John Dunn, I believe (I remember hearing about it at a dinner with him back in April of 2009), but it was little more than an idea on the table for a future project at the time. The project spec and everything for that was done under Jason. I'd say Attitude is really the first book that Jasons really getting the chance to develop from the ground up that doesn't have a lot of baggage from previous developers and writers.
Bull
Especially with errors like you see in War! and a general decline in proofing quality. At this point the issues seem more like a fixture of the company and less like something that's getting worked through to a resolution.
I'd need a bit more of a pattern for it to start looking like a fixture at the company. Though to be fair and transparent in the conversation, I've largely been away from SR for the better part of a year and a half. I purchased Corp Guide and SWA back when they came out, but haven't looked over them yet.The fact that you haven't yet read SWA might explain why your not seeing the pattern of declining quality in editing.
I've become convinced that one document is actually reverting my text changes when I save, because I think I've changed the same page reference like 4 times :)).
Bull