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[SR6] Riding though downtown during peak hours

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lostpapers

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« on: <11-28-21/1120:23> »
Hello,

We got in a situation where a player character has to take her bike to go to the other side of downtown (5km) in the fastest/shortest possible way, with a second shadowrunner on the  bike's backseat.

I determined that to do so, its average speed should be around 60kph (aroung 38mph) and asked for 5 rolls according to this speed (1 per km). With some threshold modified due to traffic jams, in the end threshold was alternating from 4 to 6 dice (between difficulties, speed and ride handling attributes)

Even if her character had a decent pool of 12 dice, the result was that it seemed really hard and she got 2 accidents on the way (thus adding some difficulties because of injuries).

After this session, we agreed that it was kind of ugly and far too difficult in the end. So I still have to find a better way to simulate such situation.

With this post, I would like to know what would you have done instead in this situation?
« Last Edit: <11-28-21/1127:16> by lostpapers »

Xenon

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« Reply #1 on: <11-28-21/1135:23> »
You probably average about 80km/h by just letting grid guide.... guide your vehicle through the city on auto pilot. Without taking any tests at all.

Reserve tests for when you do some crazy stuff. Like stunts.

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #2 on: <11-28-21/1147:50> »
Quote from: p200
Tests and Driving
Normal vehicle operation does not require a test.
Tests only come up when a driver/rigger wants to
do something tricky with the car—follow another
car without being spotted, make a hairpin turn at
high speeds, jump over the still-under-construction
bridge, that sort of thing.

Also you could have decreased the threshold for really simple things that you did feel need a roll, not only raise it.
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lostpapers

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« Reply #3 on: <11-28-21/1444:52> »
You probably average about 80km/h by just letting grid guide.... guide your vehicle through the city on auto pilot. Without taking any tests at all.

Reserve tests for when you do some crazy stuff. Like stunts.

The point is that considered that downtown was speed limited, with a mandatory use of autopilot on vehicles. So the runner had to force a manual override to be able to go over the speed limit ^^,  and then slalom her wayt through the slow downtown


Michael Chandra

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« Reply #4 on: <11-28-21/1612:53> »
Eh, if the player has driving skill, that should still be doable with maybe a few tests with reduced threshold. A [Handling] threshold should already be at a hairpin turn at high speed, while H+2 maybe if they are trying to launch the car to get it to go upside-down so they can scrape a bomb off it with a crane. Weaving through slower autopilot traffic, which involves GridGuide cursing and moving the cars out of the way, sounds like H-2 usually.
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Banshee

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« Reply #5 on: <11-28-21/2004:24> »
Well there are two possibilities...
1. Player just wants to get across town as fast as they can. No roll required but time it takes should be based on traffic conditions.
2. Player want to zip across town breaking traffic laws and making precarious choices by zip zagging around cars and through alleys etc at highest possible speed. Lots of opportunities to crash so use the rules as written.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Smogg

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« Reply #6 on: <11-29-21/0459:55> »
A player character has to take her bike to go to the other side of downtown (5km) in the fastest/shortest possible way"
To me this is a clear Outdoors(Navigation) test. Number of hits would determine how fast/short she could do it.

With regards to when to apply driving tests:
Quote from: CRB P. 200
Normal vehicle operation does not require a test. Tests only come up when a driver/rigger wants to do something tricky with the car—follow another car without being spotted, make a hairpin turn at high speeds, jump over the still-under-construction bridge, that sort of thing.

So let's say she does her Outdoors(Navigation) test and gets 1 hit and a glitch. Maybe she takes a well known route, but midway there is road construction going on, so she will need to double back, wait as the traffic files through the one available lane, or she could take it through the construction area, but that might require a Pilot (2-3) test.
« Last Edit: <11-29-21/0514:58> by Smogg »

MercilessMing

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« Reply #7 on: <11-29-21/1053:22> »
Speed Interval penalties are outrageously punishing.  My advice is to ignore them.

Beta

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« Reply #8 on: <11-29-21/1124:55> »
I have a two part answer:

1) the CRB doesn't cover all uses of a skill. For a more strategic usage like seen here I don't think the agility+pilot vs threshold with speed intervals is the right approach -- the CRB rule is for more tactical usage of pilot.  Depending on the players description of what they were going to do I probably would have done either an intuition+pilot if they are using their biking experience to slip through alleys, know where they can get around traffic easily, etc, or agility+pilot if it was more just taking the shortest route and ride between cars, weave onto sidewalks, etc.  I'd give it a threshold, failing to meet that means they save no time (they hit enough hassles to counter the savings), with each net hit shortening the time.

2) Vehicles in 2080 are unsafe at any speed.  Seriously, do the math on a Ford Americar, and the average driver or autopilot would crash almost every time that a stressful situation came up.  It really feels like someone didn't do the math on success odds.  Which doesn't have an easy fix, but the thresholds need to be lowered (you could lower the base, the speed interval values, or some combination)
Tipperman  --
speechthoughtmatrix

Michael Chandra

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« Reply #9 on: <11-29-21/1130:24> »
The thing is: They don't NEED to handle stressful situations. GridGuide can handle that. Also, 'a stressful situation' can just be a reduced threshold. And nothing is stopping you from getting a better car. You want Handling 1? Invest in it.
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Xenon

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« Reply #10 on: <11-29-21/1544:02> »
You probably average about 80km/h by just letting grid guide.... guide your vehicle through the city on auto pilot. Without taking any tests at all.

Reserve tests for when you do some crazy stuff. Like stunts.
The point is that considered that downtown was speed limited, with a mandatory use of autopilot on vehicles. So the runner had to force a manual override to be able to go over the speed limit ^^,  and then slalom her wayt through the slow downtown
SR5 p. 200 Vehicle Speeds
Up until the invention of GridGuide, travel in a ground craft could be a crapshoot. Accidents, construction, variable speed limits, and traffic congestion all made getting from one spot to another take a lot longer than one would expect. With GridGuide, which is in place in most major cities and on most major highways, travel averages 80 kilometers per hour in urban environments and 120 kilometers per hour in rural or cross-country routes.

MercilessMing

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« Reply #11 on: <11-30-21/1016:00> »
Another note about Speed Interval penalties:  Double Clutch notably IGNORES them in their chase combat mechanics - I think this is very telling. 
Driving mechanics in the CRB are too detailed, too fiddly. 

Beta

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« Reply #12 on: <12-01-21/1723:14> »
The thing is: They don't NEED to handle stressful situations. GridGuide can handle that. Also, 'a stressful situation' can just be a reduced threshold. And nothing is stopping you from getting a better car. You want Handling 1? Invest in it.

Sure, GridGuide keeps anyone from needing to make control rolls.  But I'm not complaining about the low skills and reactions of modern drivers, I'm complaining that a skilled driver in a normal vehicle will likely crash in very normal situations.  Let's just say you have a pilot pool of 9 dice, say 4 attribute (a well above average reaction rating) and a skill of 5, which is described as "Advanced professional: Even other pros realize that you've raised your game, and if they hustle you'll leave them behind"

For some common vehicles, here are the speeds at which control tests would, on average, be failed:
Harley-Davidson Scorpion: 31 km/h
Suzuki Mirage: 61 km/h
Ford Americar: 0* km/h
Hundai Shin-hyung: 26 km/h
Eurocar Westwind: 61 km/h
Misubishi Nightsky: 0* km/h
Every truck and van: 0* km/h
* obviously a control test at 0km/h isn't likely, but the point is "unsafe at any speed."  A rather competent driver will on average fail their control test in any circumstances in which they have to make it, and then on average will fail the test to avoid crashing.

Also not a single drone in the CRB would, on average, succeed a control test while running autopilot (at pilot*2 dice pool)

Given that math, I would not ask any player to use the control rules as written, as they just don't generate sensible results.
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Michael Chandra

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« Reply #13 on: <12-02-21/0456:51> »
You're still insisting on that a GM never uses a lowered threshold, though, and that people never mod their vehicles.
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Banshee

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« Reply #14 on: <12-02-21/0748:20> »
I think the rules as written work just fine at doing whatcthey are meant to do. That is setting a realistic means and method of handling performing stunts and crash tests. However most people don't realize that per the rules as written you also don't have to apply those same rules to daily driving. Many many times there is no need to make any sort of roll at all so the rather extreme speed interval inconsistencies are moot. On top of that as MC keeps pointing out there is also the option for lowering "standard" thresholds for what you would consider "daily challenges" when a non-stunt situation arises.
Robert "Banshee" Volbrecht
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Former RPG Lead Agent
Catalyst Demo Team