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Keith were you able to send the GM, David, an email?
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Rules and such / Re: [SR6] Riding though downtown during peak hours
« Last post by Banshee on <12-03-21/1440:04> »
... I have never had zero player fail ...
I think there might be a double negative in there ;-)

Ugh ... phone keyboard... corrected 🙂
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Rules and such / Re: [SR6] Riding though downtown during peak hours
« Last post by Banshee on <12-03-21/0814:22> »
I think the rules as written work just fine at doing whatcthey are meant to do. That is setting a realistic means and method of handling performing stunts and crash tests. However most people don't realize that per the rules as written you also don't have to apply those same rules to daily driving. Many many times there is no need to make any sort of roll at all so the rather extreme speed interval inconsistencies are moot. On top of that as MC keeps pointing out there is also the option for lowering "standard" thresholds for what you would consider "daily challenges" when a non-stunt situation arises.

I don't think anyone is making people roll for just driving. The point is when things come up you will almost always fail unless you are absurdly specialized. Do I make people roll to get from point A to B with no pressure of course not. Do I make people roll when they have to go from point A to point b in a storm while in a rush, yes. Just like I don't make people roll to just chat with people, I make them roll when they are trying to con someone.

Well there is certainly a huge disconnect somewhere... I've been using the 6E driving rules for a little over 4 years now and I have never had a player fail any kind of piloting check unless it was an extreme stunt or combat maneuver... even then they succeeded more often then they failed.
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Thanks for the link Beta, some useful maps there!
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I think the rules as written work just fine at doing whatcthey are meant to do. That is setting a realistic means and method of handling performing stunts and crash tests. However most people don't realize that per the rules as written you also don't have to apply those same rules to daily driving. Many many times there is no need to make any sort of roll at all so the rather extreme speed interval inconsistencies are moot. On top of that as MC keeps pointing out there is also the option for lowering "standard" thresholds for what you would consider "daily challenges" when a non-stunt situation arises.

I don't think anyone is making people roll for just driving. The point is when things come up you will almost always fail unless you are absurdly specialized. Do I make people roll to get from point A to B with no pressure of course not. Do I make people roll when they have to go from point A to point b in a storm while in a rush, yes. Just like I don't make people roll to just chat with people, I make them roll when they are trying to con someone.
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Rules and such / Re: [SR6] Riding though downtown during peak hours
« Last post by Beta on <12-02-21/1439:15> »
You're still insisting on that a GM never uses a lowered threshold, though, and that people never mod their vehicles.

When I can't think of a situation in which I wouldn't lower the threshold values (because they seem pretty universally off), this reduces to "The rules give you permission to modify them as you see fit."  Which is I think should be called out as awful game development.  There was an opportunity to do something about it Double Clutch, but it wasn't really taken (although I've not taken a good look at the actual values in there, maybe it subtly lets you ignore the CRB?).  I will accept systems that are not particularly to my taste, but I'm very intolerant of the actual math not giving sensible results when you use the system as described.  If I ever have to run vehicles in 6e I'll houserule it, and it won't be very difficult, but given that they messed up numbers with vehicles in 5e it particularly irritates me that they again didn't think through the number in 6e.

So yes, I will point out the flaws every time that somebody has issues with this system, thanks.
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Rules and such / Re: [SR6] Riding though downtown during peak hours
« Last post by Banshee on <12-02-21/0748:20> »
I think the rules as written work just fine at doing whatcthey are meant to do. That is setting a realistic means and method of handling performing stunts and crash tests. However most people don't realize that per the rules as written you also don't have to apply those same rules to daily driving. Many many times there is no need to make any sort of roll at all so the rather extreme speed interval inconsistencies are moot. On top of that as MC keeps pointing out there is also the option for lowering "standard" thresholds for what you would consider "daily challenges" when a non-stunt situation arises.
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You're still insisting on that a GM never uses a lowered threshold, though, and that people never mod their vehicles.
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I don't know if it is what you are looking for, but in Season 1 of Shadowrun Missions one of the early missions is called, iirc Forced Recon and has maps of a just built research institute that the PCs are supposed to be gathering information about before it goes live.  (seasons 1 and 2 are free downloads from the Catalyst site, but they are not linked to from anywhere obvious, so here is a link for you:  https://www.shadowruntabletop.com/missions/downloads-season-1/ )
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Rules and such / Re: [SR6] Riding though downtown during peak hours
« Last post by Beta on <12-01-21/1723:14> »
The thing is: They don't NEED to handle stressful situations. GridGuide can handle that. Also, 'a stressful situation' can just be a reduced threshold. And nothing is stopping you from getting a better car. You want Handling 1? Invest in it.

Sure, GridGuide keeps anyone from needing to make control rolls.  But I'm not complaining about the low skills and reactions of modern drivers, I'm complaining that a skilled driver in a normal vehicle will likely crash in very normal situations.  Let's just say you have a pilot pool of 9 dice, say 4 attribute (a well above average reaction rating) and a skill of 5, which is described as "Advanced professional: Even other pros realize that you've raised your game, and if they hustle you'll leave them behind"

For some common vehicles, here are the speeds at which control tests would, on average, be failed:
Harley-Davidson Scorpion: 31 km/h
Suzuki Mirage: 61 km/h
Ford Americar: 0* km/h
Hundai Shin-hyung: 26 km/h
Eurocar Westwind: 61 km/h
Misubishi Nightsky: 0* km/h
Every truck and van: 0* km/h
* obviously a control test at 0km/h isn't likely, but the point is "unsafe at any speed."  A rather competent driver will on average fail their control test in any circumstances in which they have to make it, and then on average will fail the test to avoid crashing.

Also not a single drone in the CRB would, on average, succeed a control test while running autopilot (at pilot*2 dice pool)

Given that math, I would not ask any player to use the control rules as written, as they just don't generate sensible results.
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