[Billy_Club]

Is there anything in the rules that would prevent a Technomancer from learning (or Threading) a Tacnet as a complex form?  The SR4A merely states that any program may be a complex form, except Biofeedback Filter.  Unwired brings up some new programs that can be complex forms, such as Skillsofts and Smartlink, but doesn't imply that other specific programs couldn't do the same.  Following the logic that there is nothing preventing it, this would allow for a rating 4 (unfortunately the max  ) Tacnet running off a slave network with a bunch of drones or party members.  Further, would it be possible to Thread a Tacnet higher than its hard cap of 4?

[Dakka]

This is one of those things that lives in a grey area.  Yes there are rules for emulation of skillsofts and there are rules for complex form simrig and smartlink.  All these rules are explicit in unwired and there is no explicit mention of Tacnet as a complex form.  That said, there is room for discussion and implementation of Tacnet as a complex form if your GM will allow it.  I personally wouldn't allow threading of it without access to a copy of the software, similar to emulating skillsofts and I certainly wouldn't allow a rating higher than 4 (even if higher ratings would be impossible to subscribe to anyway due to sensor channel requirements).

[Ultra Violet]

The limited program rating for Complex Form is a topic that isn't clearly answered, in the rules. Because Complex Forms follow other rules as programs do. But you can argue, that Complex Forms follow the same rules as the program it simulates. So the Grey Area is between the limited rating of the program and (Resonance x2) as limit for Complex Forms.

@Topic
Yes TacNet Software can be taken as CF. But see obove, there is a GM discussion to make how far it can go.
As little tip for that look at the Simrig CF, as addendum for the TacSoft CF.
And yes it makes the whole TacNet secure against mundane hacking.

[Tagz]

And yes it makes the whole TacNet secure against mundane hacking.

I'm not so certain about that.  Depends on a few things.

First off, wireless signals are capture-able even if not hackable.  So the traffic between commlinks can be sniffed, decrypted, and supplied to the enemy.  That info can include sensor readouts, communications between members, locations of TacNet members, etc, all info that could be very useful to the enemy.

Second off, not all groups trust each other enough to slave their runner comm to another team member, especially one of those scary Technomancers  .  A decentralized TacNet would mean that the TM's TacNet CF would be interacting with the others, not controlling them.  So any OTHER member of the TacNet could be hacked and the enemy hacker could insert bad intel which is then supplied to the group, including the TM.

And third, even with a centralized TacNet, the rest of the team's comms are slaved to the TM.  That means that an enemy hacker can Spoof those commlinks if they figure out the TM's Access ID and break encryption.  Best option, but still not "unhackable", has lots of potential for an enemy hacker.

Honestly, a TacNet is very easy to mess with for an enemy hacker regardless of a TM running it as a CF or not.  I feel like the TacNet was put in there to give the hacker combat actions since cyberware hacking is so tricky.  If you have a clever enemy hacker the best thing to do is turn the damn TacNet off.


All that said, I had a TM run TacNet as a CF, did it just as Dakka suggested.  Worked fine.

[Ultra Violet]

And third, even with a centralized TacNet, the rest of the team's comms are slaved to the TM.  That means that an enemy hacker can Spoof those commlinks if they figure out the TM's Access ID and break encryption.  Best option, but still not "unhackable", has lots of potential for an enemy hacker.

A centralized TacNet with a Bio-node as the Master is not hackable for mundane hackers. But spoofing is a good option. (see Unwired, Subscriptions and Traffic, p. 135) Spoofing is not hacking, there are differences.

Another good option is to work it with disposable Commlinks. Given to every member of the team.
So nobody needs to use his own "private" Comm.

[Tagz]

I consider anything that used the Hacking skill to be a form of hacking.  Of course, this is purely symantics.

[joe15552]

Let me start off by agreeing with Dakka, this is a very grey area. In order for something that is a grey area to work well in the game, the GM must make it clear to his players what the guidelines are for his game. This will make it un-grey in an individual game with a good GM.

I say no tacnet complex form. I ran into one GM that said no to it, then it instantly became clear why it should be that way. A complex form with a capped rating other than resonance attribute just doesn't make sense for technomancers. Another thing is that tacnet is a very technical program that uses staunch military tactics derived from experienced military personnel and programmers. It just doesn't make sense for a technomancer to magically create a tacnet that is up to date with the best military tactics in the world. Another thing is that there is a lot of hardware that is incorperated into a tacnet. in fact, if you are missing some hardware, the tacnet is not as effective. Threading is a software test, not a hardware test, so it doesn't make sense that tacnet could be threaded.

Of course, there are pretty good arguments for tacnet as a complex form. But why? It takes 0 hacking skills to set up tacnet. It may be arguable that you need to get mundane computing skill 1 in order to know how to set up the network, but anyone can set it up, not just hackers. If you want to set up a tacnet as a technomancer, buy 1 computing skill, and the tacnet program, then set up the network with your buddies, slave all your buddies comlinks to your comlink, then set up some nasty sprites in the comlink to ward off hacks. If my players came up with that, I would have no qualms at all giving them all the +1 or 2 to combat stuff.

[Billy_Club]

A Tacnet is not the most advanced piece of military software in the sixth world.  Remember in its description that it references things as mundane as sports teams using it.  This means that the program was probably the brainchild of a bunch of mathematicians in some corp sweatshop who developed a neat communal software algorithm (probably to increase their win percentage in online FPS's) which was later pirated by corpsec/military/sports/shadow units for more practical purposes.  I would also argue that it couldn't possibly exceed the complexity of a set of skillwires, which specifically can be threaded or learned as a complex form through emulation.  I can definitely see the logic in maintaining a hard cap of 4, since the program description specifically says so.  As to why I'd want to run it as a form instead of a program?  For one, it is expensive normally and so makes a specific class a little cooler.  For two, it does exactly what Ultra pointed out by preventing hacking in a centralized network (but not spoofing, as noted).  That is a big plus.  It also doesn't use up processing power on anyone's commlinks, so whatever programs they may be running are completely free to continue doing so.

[Ultra Violet]

I found another example of hard cap program as CF (see Unwired, p. 155, Tank sprites). It has Cascading as CF and it is caped as the program is. That is enough evidence to say the TacSoft as CF has still its cap.
But the technomancer rules have options that bypasses such caps, even if they still exist. For example the sprite option "Assisting Operation", here is the sprite another factor which has absolutely nothing to do with the rating of the CF itself.
Yes I know "Assisting Operation" is only temporary and do not qualify as stable TacNet option, but it shows that technomancer have ways around program caps.

[joe15552]

Billy Club, I don't think the fact that people with no skill use tacnet make it less sophisticated. That just means that the software is easy to use, which means it is even more sophisticated. User friendly means better software... well, windows is an exception, but I think you know what I mean, lol. I just can't shake the amount of  hardware required to get the bonuses... that means that the process of creating tacnet software is more complicated than just pure programming.

UV, your argument is very convincing.... I didn't even think about the complex forms that are capped for sprites... Using that logic, I think the tacnet complex form should be capped at 3, which is plenty high, since the best real tacnet is rating 4, and tacnet rating 3 has an availability of 15. And then, there's the ways around that cap, like you said, UV. That's fascinating stuff.

Edit: well... actually maybe there's not a way around the rating cap for technomancers, as far as options are concerned. Program options are only for common use, hacking, autosoft, and simsense programs. Which one is tacnet?

[raggedhalo]

As a GM, I have no problem with TacNet as a Complex Form, with a hard limit of Rating 4 like all other Tacnet programs.

[Wraith235]

Unwired pg. 136 sidebar senter of the page

In theory, a technomancer can adapt any piece of
software by mimicking the program with a complex
form that he shapes (by threading or learning) based
on the original. Since a number of programs such as
Sensor software (p. 60, Arsenal) or tacsofts (p. 125) re-
quire connections to sensors, databases, and/or other
auxiliary data, a technomancer can only use complex
forms based on that software if he has a connection
to such sensors, databases, or auxiliary components.
Individual gamemasters may choose whether to allow
this in their games.

[Billy_Club]

Unwired pg. 136 sidebar senter of the page

In theory, a technomancer can adapt any piece of
software by mimicking the program with a complex
form that he shapes (by threading or learning) based
on the original. Since a number of programs such as
Sensor software (p. 60, Arsenal) or tacsofts (p. 125) re-
quire connections to sensors, databases, and/or other
auxiliary data, a technomancer can only use complex
forms based on that software if he has a connection
to such sensors, databases, or auxiliary components.
Individual gamemasters may choose whether to allow
this in their games.

Right, had seen that, but it seems like a silly entry since when would a Technomancer NOT have access to such things?  All he has to do is log on to some devices and tadah.  So seems rather odd that they'd even include it, probably why its a sidebar.  On the other hand, the note says only that he has to have the equipment to be able to use the form, not to learn the form in the first place.  So in a roundabout way it is helpful.

Billy Club, I don't think the fact that people with no skill use tacnet make it less sophisticated. That just means that the software is easy to use, which means it is even more sophisticated. User friendly means better software... well, windows is an exception, but I think you know what I mean, lol. I just can't shake the amount of  hardware required to get the bonuses... that means that the process of creating tacnet software is more complicated than just pure programming.

UV, your argument is very convincing.... I didn't even think about the complex forms that are capped for sprites... Using that logic, I think the tacnet complex form should be capped at 3, which is plenty high, since the best real tacnet is rating 4, and tacnet rating 3 has an availability of 15. And then, there's the ways around that cap, like you said, UV. That's fascinating stuff.

Edit: well... actually maybe there's not a way around the rating cap for technomancers, as far as options are concerned. Program options are only for common use, hacking, autosoft, and simsense programs. Which one is tacnet?

My point wasn't that a Tacnet wasn't complex, though I can see why you'd make that assumption.  My point was that a Tacnet, based on what it does, couldn't be more complex than something like Skillwires.  Since you can run Skillwires as a complex form already it stands to reason that you could do so with any program (except biofeedback filter).  Skillwires are also at least twice as expensive (not counting options) as a Tacnet of equal rating, so as a reflection of complexity, rarity and supply it would continue to imply Tacnet as a viable complex form.

[Wraith235]

Unwired pg. 136 sidebar senter of the page

In theory, a technomancer can adapt any piece of
software by mimicking the program with a complex
form that he shapes (by threading or learning) based
on the original. Since a number of programs such as
Sensor software (p. 60, Arsenal) or tacsofts (p. 125) re-
quire connections to sensors, databases, and/or other
auxiliary data, a technomancer can only use complex
forms based on that software if he has a connection
to such sensors, databases, or auxiliary components.
Individual gamemasters may choose whether to allow
this in their games.

Right, had seen that, but it seems like a silly entry since when would a Technomancer NOT have access to such things?  All he has to do is log on to some devices and tadah.  So seems rather odd that they'd even include it, probably why its a sidebar.  On the other hand, the note says only that he has to have the equipment to be able to use the form, not to learn the form in the first place.  So in a roundabout way it is helpful.

Billy Club, I don't think the fact that people with no skill use tacnet make it less sophisticated. That just means that the software is easy to use, which means it is even more sophisticated. User friendly means better software... well, windows is an exception, but I think you know what I mean, lol. I just can't shake the amount of  hardware required to get the bonuses... that means that the process of creating tacnet software is more complicated than just pure programming.

UV, your argument is very convincing.... I didn't even think about the complex forms that are capped for sprites... Using that logic, I think the tacnet complex form should be capped at 3, which is plenty high, since the best real tacnet is rating 4, and tacnet rating 3 has an availability of 15. And then, there's the ways around that cap, like you said, UV. That's fascinating stuff.

Edit: well... actually maybe there's not a way around the rating cap for technomancers, as far as options are concerned. Program options are only for common use, hacking, autosoft, and simsense programs. Which one is tacnet?

My point wasn't that a Tacnet wasn't complex, though I can see why you'd make that assumption.  My point was that a Tacnet, based on what it does, couldn't be more complex than something like Skillwires.  Since you can run Skillwires as a complex form already it stands to reason that you could do so with any program (except biofeedback filter).  Skillwires are also at least twice as expensive (not counting options) as a Tacnet of equal rating, so as a reflection of complexity, rarity and supply it would continue to imply Tacnet as a viable complex form.

Skillwires requires an Echo Called Biowires pg. 145 Unwired

By acquiring the Biowire echo, the technomancer receives the
ability to modulate the neuroelectrical and neuromuscular network
of his body such that it can work similarly to a skillwire cyberware
system (p. 335, SR4). In game terms, it operates with a rating equal
to the submersion grade of the technomancer. In all other regards,
it follows the basic rules for skillwire systems. However, since tech-
nomancers are unable to process active skillsof programs, they have
to convert them into complex form–like programs to interpret and
process them in their “language” by emulation (see p. 149).

also if you look at the programming table on pg.119

Skillsofts are not something you can brogram yourself ... but a Tacnet is

[Ultra Violet]

The connection to such sensors, databases, or auxiliary components is for the TacNet not a big problem. Since the FAQ told us...

Do technomancers need contact lenses or cybereyes to use smartlinked guns?
Technomancers need either a smartlink implant, smartlink-equipped visual accessory (contacts, glasses, goggles, etc.), or a special complex form (p.136, Unwired) to utilize a smartgun.
[So you only need the CF and the smart weapon nothing more.]

Do technomancers need a sim module or simrig to play or record simsense?
Technomancers can experience simsense normally through their living persona without the need for a sim module, and they are always considered to be in Hot Sim mode (p.226, SR4A). To record a simsense feed, the technomancer either needs a simrig or a special complex form (p.136, Unwired). [It is the Simrig CF I recommended earlier ]

How do technomancers perceive AR and VR? Inner eye? Intuition? Like Neo in the Matrix movies? Is it always on?
Technomancers see AR exactly as everyone else does—as additional info overlaid on top of their real world senses. When they switch to VR, they experience the Matrix the same as any other user. The AR overlay is "always on" and does not require image displays, speakers, AR gloves or other peripherals. [TacSoft is an AR-Soft.]