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An update on SR6e DriveThruRPG ratings

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Lormyr

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« Reply #105 on: <09-21-19/1441:32> »
Season 10 is already available to CDT agents, and is in 5e.  Between it and the 2019 CMPs (also in 5e) there's lots of 5e SRM gaming to go before the next SRM season next summer.  There'll be more 6we books out by then, and I've seen an awful little buzz about JMH having said in an interview that 6we Rigger book is slated for Gen Con release next year.

Right. In total, 28 Missions for Neo-Tokyo in 5e are currently available. That's a strong number for folks that haven't already blown through them.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

penllawen

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« Reply #106 on: <09-29-19/1353:56> »
   Position      Title      Score      Number of ratings      Release date   
   1      Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit      4.8/5      42      August 01, 2019   
   2      Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook      2.8/5      19      August 26, 2019   
   3      Eclipse Phase Second Edition      5/5      13      August 09, 2019   
   4      Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone      5/5      2      August 27, 2019   
   5      The Short Games Digest: Volume 2      5/5      5      September 09, 2019   
   6      Bayt al Azif #2: A magazine for Cthulhu Mythos roleplaying games      n/a      n/a      September 09, 2019   
   7      Stars Without Number: Revised Edition      4.9/5      154      December 29, 2017   
   8      Occult Philosophy      5/5      24      July 29, 2019   
   9      Rangers of Shadow Deep: Ghost Stone      4.3/5      3      August 02, 2019   
   10      Esper Genesis 5E Threats Database      5/5      6      August 15, 2019   
   11      Rangers of Shadow Deep: A Tabletop Adventure Game      4.8/5      62      November 02, 2018   
   12      Cyberpunk 2.0.2.0. The Second Edition, Version 2.01      4.5/5      79      March 09, 2014   
   13      Lords and Lands: a Witcher TRPG Expansion      3.3/5      12      August 01, 2019   
   14      Apocalypse World: Burned Over Hackbook      5/5      3      August 01, 2019   
   15      Star Trek Adventures: Alpha Quadrant Source Book      4.3/5      3      July 25, 2019   
It's been a couple of weeks so I thought I'd do an update.

This time I've added some data on absolute sales figures. Via here, we see we can arrange the sale "metals" awards badges that DTRGP gives products into tiers, where each tier has outsold the tiers below it. Via this post - which is not official but is not obviously wrong - we can convert the tiers into possible sales numbers. I have added those below.

   Position      Title      Score      Number of ratings      Release date      Sales award   
   1      Cyberpunk Red Jumpstart Kit      4.8/5      47      August 01, 2019      Adamantium (Tier 1 - 5000+)   
   2      Shadowrun, Sixth World Core Rulebook      2.8/5      34      August 26, 2019      Platinum (Tier 3 - 1000-2000)   
   3      Cypher System Rulebook      n/a      n/a      September 27, 2019      Copper (Tier 7 - 50-100)   
   4      WFRP Ubersreik Adventures - Bait and Witch      3.8/5      4      September 26, 2019      Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500)   
   5      Eclipse Phase Second Edition      5/5      14      August 09, 2019      Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000)   
   6      Hurricane Dorian Red Cross Charity Bundle Anchor Product      n/a      n/a      September 24, 2019      Copper (Tier 7 - 50-250)   
   7      The Chronomancer's Guide to the Future      5/5      2      September 28, 2019      Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250)   
   8      Legend of the Five Rings: Courts of Stone      5/5      4      August 27, 2019      Electrum (Tier 5 - 250-500)   
   9      Heroic Maps - Storeys: Ragnar's Keep      n/a      n/a      September 26, 2019      Silver (Tier 6 - 100-250)   
   10      Stars Without Number: Revised Edition      4.9/5      164      December 29, 2017      Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+)   

Some extra comparison points:

   Title      Score      Number of ratings      Release date      Sales award   
   Shadowrun: Sixth World Beginner Box      2.0/5      15      July 09, 2019      Gold (Tier 4 - 500-1000)   
   Shadowrun: Fifth Edition Core Rulebook (Master Index Edition)      4.1/5      139      July 11, 2013      Adamantine (Tier 1 - 5000+)   


ZeroSum

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« Reply #107 on: <09-29-19/1400:07> »
The one thing that stands out to me is that holy moly, I should give Stars Without Number a try!

penllawen

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« Reply #108 on: <09-29-19/1408:40> »
The one thing that stands out to me is that holy moly, I should give Stars Without Number a try!
Yeah, same thing happened to me!

Also: the hype train for Cyberpunk Red is real. It’s selling really well.

dezmont

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« Reply #109 on: <09-29-19/1417:05> »
Stars without Number Revised is, in fact, quite good.

It is the only retro revival I ever liked because its very aware of WHY the industry moved away from the tropes of retro games, and, unlike the first edition which made the mistake of hugging every unfun aspect of retro games that makes it really hard to attach to anything happening, violently ejects the cruft while keeping the actual enjoyable parts of retro games, playing like a zippy hybrid of Dungeons and Dragons and older versions of Traveller without feeling bloated and gross like Traveller d20.

Like SWN 1e made being incapacitated in a fight without dying impossible in the core rules without very rare weaponry. SWN 2e revised went "Wait, no, that is lame and there is a reason the industry has very strong protections against dying instantly to a lucky hit" and made it so unless you got hit with a giant weapon it is IMPOSSIBLE to die to a single attack as you always get 6 turns to stabilize an ally. But then it realized this let them play hardball and kept in the fact that its crazy easy for a low level character shot by any gun to become critically injured so the adventure became about keeping them alive by making anything more than stabilizing buddies hard.

Basically its this wonderous blend of oldschool and newschool RPG design that really gets the RPG community has moved on and doesn't like characters being 100% disposable but also has this wonderfully brutal feel where things are unfair for everyone and its about you trying to be the most unfair while still being a little fish, its great. Can't recommend it enough, I 100% get why its nearly a 5 star rating.

Singularity

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« Reply #110 on: <09-29-19/2209:57> »

Also: the hype train for Cyberpunk Red is real. It’s selling really well.

I think that may be due to both the anticipation of the Cyberpunk 2077 video game combined with the future release of the Cyberpunk 2020 updated system.

dezmont

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« Reply #111 on: <09-30-19/0353:18> »
I mean it does not exactly take a marketing expert to figure out why 6e was released when it was released.

Shadowrun went from having almost no market competition in a small niche market most people don't pay attention to, to having a REALLY big name competitor that is riding the hype of an extremely anticipated video-game with breathtaking memetic celebrity backing. There is now a lot of attention being payed to cyberpunk P&P RPGs, so now is the time for a really strong visibility push!

0B

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« Reply #112 on: <09-30-19/1244:50> »
Even Final Fantasy VII somewhat "competes" against it (Or perhaps broadens the market) as fantasy-cyberpunk. I think there was one developer interview where someone described it as "steampunk," but with the megacorporation taking over the world, hidden corporate experiments, slums, and neo-anarchists in the form of AVALANCHE, it falls closer under cyberpunk in terms of theme, even if the artistic style looks more like steampunk.

Oddly, FFVII seems like what the sixth world could be if the mana levels got as high as in Earthdawn, meaning that just about everyone had access to magic.

I don't think FFVII or Cyberpunk 2077 will draw people away from Shadowrun, of course, but CPRed might eat into the market. However, if the market itself is broadening because of the attention these upcoming games are getting, I think there's room for growth for both brands. The CPRed's QSR knocked SR6we's QSR out of the water, but we haven't seen how the core book stacks against it. It's easy to make assumptions about it being better because the QSR were better, but like with the next round of errata for 6we, I'll believe it when I see it.

skalchemist

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« Reply #113 on: <09-30-19/1400:22> »
(I haven't read this whole thread, coming into it after 8 pages that isn't going to happen.  So if someone has already made this point, sorry to waste your time.)

One thing I find interesting.  The 2.8/5 average rating for Shadowrun 6th makes it seem like its mediocre.  But that is not really true, if you look at the actual ratings: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product_reviews.php?products_id=286850 

Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.  Actual ratings of 2 and 3 are the LEAST common ratings given...

5 stars - 6 people
4 stars - 11 people
3 stars - 1 person
2 stars - 3 people
1 star - 13 people

An average simply can't describe that distribution properly.   Its not that people don't like Shadowrun 6th.  Its that hardly anyone has a mild opinion about it. 

topcat

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« Reply #114 on: <09-30-19/1418:17> »
I don't think FFVII or Cyberpunk 2077 will draw people away from Shadowrun, of course, but CPRed might eat into the market. However, if the market itself is broadening because of the attention these upcoming games are getting, I think there's room for growth for both brands. The CPRed's QSR knocked SR6we's QSR out of the water, but we haven't seen how the core book stacks against it. It's easy to make assumptions about it being better because the QSR were better, but like with the next round of errata for 6we, I'll believe it when I see it.

We may not have much direct competition in the cyberpunk+magic genre, but we're making a strong case for people to look elsewhere for their tabletop entertainment.  The core book is the most embarrassing release since the editing/printing nightmare that was the Sixth World Almanac and it comes on top of the most anti-climactic meta events in the game's history.  Even those events were widely ignored in the core book - you have to look in the Streetpedia and you might get a paragraph on them if you're lucky.

Some meta thing was sort of decribed on the website through a combination of video, audio, chat, and interpretive dance.  I don't know exactly what it was because it had the sort of coherence found in a five year old ADHD kid riding a post-Halloween sugar high.  I can only hope that it all makes it into Missions so I can read about it sometime after the release of SR7.

FastJack

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« Reply #115 on: <09-30-19/1428:01> »
Again, please keep comments constructive. Merely expressing your opinion "This sucks" is not constructive and against the Terms of Service #7.

0B

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« Reply #116 on: <09-30-19/1513:31> »
We may not have much direct competition in the cyberpunk+magic genre, but we're making a strong case for people to look elsewhere for their tabletop entertainment.

Well, you're half-right. If 6we's release had been better, I probably wouldn't have gotten into 2e Shadowrun, and now that's my New Favorite.

CPRed doesn't provide the same thing as Shadowrun- not just in terms of magic/setting, but also lethality. The ease in which characters die is a major turn-off for me for CPRed, since I prefer long-lived campaigns. You can eliminate a lot of that in SR with minimal fudging and competent players, but a lot of the lethality in CPRed seems to come down to luck- maybe that's just my impression from the QSR. It was definitely fun for a one-shot, but it does not meet my own needs as a GM. That's not to say other people can't enjoy that level of lethality- it's also possible that the game isn't as lethal as it seemed, just that the players were inexperienced (Since they were new). But as-is, it seemed like I would have to fudge or house-rule a lot of CPRed to get to the right level of lethality, and that feels like cheating. I'm not morally opposed to fudging dice, but I want to avoid it as much as possible, and I don't want it obvious to the players when I do so.

I'm not calling it quits on 6we unless there's no new errata by 2020. I don't think I'll be running it until the next errata batch comes in, either, but I am a bit excited for it since it looks like it'll be bigger. If CubeWorld can release an update after 7 years and No Man's Sky can make a comeback, I'm not going to count out 6we this early in the game.

Lormyr

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« Reply #117 on: <09-30-19/1648:56> »
Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.  Actual ratings of 2 and 3 are the LEAST common ratings given...

Well the quality of the content/edition is always a matter of perspective, but I do believe your comment of it being polarizing is spot on. The current poll basically shows 17 people liking it, 16 disliking it, and 1 person somewhere in between.

I do not believe this polarization is likely to change one iota until further errata and additional content come out. It will be interesting to see fan thoughts once both of those things come to pass. I have no prediction for the outcome but will be watching it develop with interest.
"TL:DR 6e's reduction of meaningful choices is akin to forcing everyone to wear training wheels. Now it's just becomes a bunch of toddlers riding around on tricycles they can't fall off of." - Adzling

Iron Serpent Prince

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« Reply #118 on: <10-01-19/1101:34> »
Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.

I submit that it is both at the same time.

If you look, the 5 Star ratings are "anonymous" ratings, not reviews.  It is almost as if the raters knew there weren't words to justify the 5 Star rating.
Likewise, many of the 1 Star reviews probably should be 2 Stars - if the reviewer could set aside their feelings about the company / product.
The 4 Star reviews I read mentioned, and then quickly glossed over, the editing and production issues.  Someone might be able to sell me on the idea that those should be 3.5 Stars, but DriveThuRPG won't allow that - so the reviewer rounded to 4.  Maybe for some of them...  Some should probably be brought down to 3.

The overall effect would be roughly the same, just more indicative of the quality of the product.


If you set aside your feelings, hopes, aspirations, and such and try to read the book objectively (I admit that it can be difficult) it reads kind of like someone took their college roommates hand written notes, typed them up, and submitted them as their thesis without reading them first.
There are quite a few good ideas in the Sixth World Core Book.  I dare say there are a few great ideas in it.  Not a one is fully fleshed out though.

There is a rumor that the playtesters tried to tell CGL that Shadowrun Sixth World needed another year abouts before it was ready.  I can believe it.

It wouldn't hurt if they hired - and put under NDA if they needed - someone that wasn't entrenched in the design process to read through it to point out all the gaps of information.

FastJack

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« Reply #119 on: <10-01-19/1114:22> »
Shadowrun 6th is not mediocre, it is polarizing.

I submit that it is both at the same time.

If you look, the 5 Star ratings are "anonymous" ratings, not reviews.  It is almost as if the raters knew there weren't words to justify the 5 Star rating.
Likewise, many of the 1 Star reviews probably should be 2 Stars - if the reviewer could set aside their feelings about the company / product.
The 4 Star reviews I read mentioned, and then quickly glossed over, the editing and production issues.  Someone might be able to sell me on the idea that those should be 3.5 Stars, but DriveThuRPG won't allow that - so the reviewer rounded to 4.  Maybe for some of them...  Some should probably be brought down to 3.

The overall effect would be roughly the same, just more indicative of the quality of the product.


If you set aside your feelings, hopes, aspirations, and such and try to read the book objectively (I admit that it can be difficult) it reads kind of like someone took their college roommates hand written notes, typed them up, and submitted them as their thesis without reading them first.
There are quite a few good ideas in the Sixth World Core Book.  I dare say there are a few great ideas in it.  Not a one is fully fleshed out though.

There is a rumor that the playtesters tried to tell CGL that Shadowrun Sixth World needed another year abouts before it was ready.  I can believe it.

It wouldn't hurt if they hired - and put under NDA if they needed - someone that wasn't entrenched in the design process to read through it to point out all the gaps of information.
I saw two anonymous reviews, while the anonymous ratings are 12 for 4/5 and 8 for 1/2 stars. But sure, it's only the people that like the game that are remaining anonymous. Wonder if it has something to do with not wanting their information out there.