NEWS

Practical Cyberadepts

  • 34 Replies
  • 8335 Views

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #15 on: <03-11-19/1419:04> »
Drone Rigger using Swarm with Machine Sprite back up can get to 29 Dice, with a 15ish limit on any skill with an Autosoft.  A TM with an RCC can pull that off straight out of Char Gen if they wanted to.  Be real skinny on skills/stats but High Resonance, Compiling skill, and Resources B are all they really need.

Sustain builds can stack some stupid high numbers up as well, especially if they're tossing the sustains on other PCs and adding in Leadership buffs.  +4 Stat, Analyze Device, Leadership to double skill ranks....

Overdrive is a decent buff, but it's not going to break anything that wasn't already supremely breakable.  TMs with Machine Sprites have always been able to do this with anything they have Skill ranks in without breaking gear.


Clearly YMMV.   ; ) 

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #16 on: <03-11-19/1438:32> »
That's true but I work hard at pretending the swarm rules don't exist.

Do we need to break things more?
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Myriad

  • *
  • Newb
  • *
  • Posts: 61
« Reply #17 on: <03-11-19/2350:07> »
Just to add onto this, but there's a few funnier overdrive augments you can use.

-Muscle replacement.
-Active hardwires.
-Wired reflexes or move by wire.

This way you can easily be that skills E/Techno A/Human C version if you wanted. 7 edge, and 3 resonance is really all you want with Delphi Paragon/Optional sprite powers raising limits.

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #18 on: <03-12-19/0952:40> »
I appricate the thought Myriad, but as it happen internal ware isn't a huge issue, sure you can overdrive it, but as it requires surgery to repair, so the usefulness is strictly limited.

Limbs are accessible and repairable.

The question is what caps are cyber adapts allowed to break. As Hobbes rightfully points out, achieving monster pulls is already in the system, so why not allow however many success you can get on the over drive roll?
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

DigitalZombie

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 744
« Reply #19 on: <03-12-19/1044:34> »
I made a build (never played it) with wired reflexes 1
And a cyberarm. The arm had a hard nanohive rat 2 (24k) with rating 2 implant medic (20% of wired reflexes =7.4 k).
So wired reflexes could repair itself with 6 dice when wireless on, and more dice with a machine sprite.

I tried to do the MBW build, but with essence cost, skilljacks etc. I never made it work.

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
« Reply #20 on: <03-12-19/1208:06> »
Drone Rigger using Swarm with Machine Sprite back up can get to 29 Dice, with a 15ish limit on any skill with an Autosoft.  A TM with an RCC can pull that off straight out of Char Gen if they wanted to.  Be real skinny on skills/stats but High Resonance, Compiling skill, and Resources B are all they really need.
Counterpoint: one well-placed hi-ex grenade. Which is why I'm only interested in using Swarm for crafting and modification purposes: no matter dice you give drones, they're still just fragile little drones.
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #21 on: <03-12-19/1301:44> »
*shrug* counter-counter point.  Absolutely zero RAW on how dispersed your SWARM has to be.  Total GM fiat.  Also no RAW on types of Drones needed to SWARM.  You could have Kanmushi's in the vents, Flyspy's zipping around, and a Rotodrone with a Sniper Rifle parked outside that doesn't care about walls.  All up to the GM to adjudicate how that works. 

Counter-Counter point #2, grenades are obviously a combat response.  Your Swarm should have been rocking 29ish dice Sneaking and should have been undetected until they opened up and turned most of the field into a hellscape of flashbangs, Thermographic Smoke, and suppression fire.

Counter-Counter point #3, don't forget Social skills can all be defaulted to!  Take your Realistic Features 4 Anthro Drone, stick it in some Mortimer's, slap on a little Black Panther, you're rocking 20+ Dice for that Negotiation test.  Matrix skills, also possible to default to several of them, which is a path to darkness I've never bothered to figure out.  But theoretically possible to build a gang of Agents and Drone Swarms doing all kinds of stupid.

Drone Swarms and Sustain mage builds can totally disrupt a table and steal from another player's spotlight by completely blowing the other PCs dice pools out of the water.   Overdrive isn't going to do that.  TM w/MBW and Machine Sprites can certainly do some clever stuff, but can still be outdone by specialists and have some significant compromises to deal with.  The TM w/MBW build has been around for a long time, Overdrive at best adds a couple dice to those shenanigans. 


Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
« Reply #22 on: <03-12-19/1518:22> »
*shrug* counter-counter point.  Absolutely zero RAW on how dispersed your SWARM has to be.  Total GM fiat.
So either the GM says the drones have to be fairly close together and you can take them all out with one grenade, or he lets them be more dispersed so he can abuse the Swarm rules to his own advantages.

Quote
Also no RAW on types of Drones needed to SWARM.  You could have Kanmushi's in the vents, Flyspy's zipping around, and a Rotodrone with a Sniper Rifle parked outside that doesn't care about walls.  All up to the GM to adjudicate how that works.
While that is true, the fact that your RCC can only run so many autosofts (which are model-specific) heavily incentivizes a uniform swarm.

Quote
Counter-Counter point #2, grenades are obviously a combat response.  Your Swarm should have been rocking 29ish dice Sneaking and should have been undetected until they opened up and turned most of the field into a hellscape of flashbangs, Thermographic Smoke, and suppression fire.
And then the GM pulls the exact same trick on you, unless he's feeling particularly mean. In that case, he'll pull the same trick on you except his drones are steel lynxes with vision and audio enhancements, R4 ruthenium polymer coating, R6 thermal damping and R6 signature masking....at which point anyone who's been through the supersoaker wars will get an ominous feeling of deja vu. As broken as Swarms might be, it's a zero-sum game for most purposes.

Quote
Counter-Counter point #3, don't forget Social skills can all be defaulted to!  Take your Realistic Features 4 Anthro Drone, stick it in some Mortimer's, slap on a little Black Panther, you're rocking 20+ Dice for that Negotiation test.
How is a drone going to make a negotiation test when its linguistic abilities are limited to verbal commands, as stated in Rigger 5.0? Yes, you can buy language autosofts, but those only allow for translation, not actual conversation.

Quote
Matrix skills, also possible to default to several of them, which is a path to darkness I've never bothered to figure out.  But theoretically possible to build a gang of Agents and Drone Swarms doing all kinds of stupid.
Pilots can't perceive the Matrix the way someone (or something) with a persona can, which I imagine terribly limits their ability to use matrix skills.
« Last Edit: <03-12-19/1627:08> by Ghost Rigger »
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #23 on: <03-12-19/1948:38> »
My point is TMs have far more abusable things they could spend Monies on.  Overdive is a Sustain penalty to everything else they do, and Matrix Damage to deal with on a regular basis.  Level 6 with 6 Hits gets you a +3, -1 for the Sustain because Psyche,  net of +2.  Oh, and Fade, but we're talking optimized TMs here so probably not an issue.

That is a very expensive +2 Dice.  Ain't gonna break nothin.

Edit: and in actual practice getting 6 hits on a Threading Test with a low Resonance TM is a lot easier said than done.
« Last Edit: <03-12-19/1951:35> by Hobbes »

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #24 on: <03-12-19/2030:59> »
My point is TMs have far more abusable things they could spend Monies on.  Overdive is a Sustain penalty to everything else they do, and Matrix Damage to deal with on a regular basis.  Level 6 with 6 Hits gets you a +3, -1 for the Sustain because Psyche,  net of +2.  Oh, and Fade, but we're talking optimized TMs here so probably not an issue.

That is a very expensive +2 Dice.  Ain't gonna break nothin.

Edit: and in actual practice getting 6 hits on a Threading Test with a low Resonance TM is a lot easier said than done.

I largely agree Hobbes, there are cheaper and more efficient ways to get specific dice pools up, and 6 hits for +3 and matrix damage and drain isn't very efficient at all. But Overdrive is a complex form, so a sprite can sustain it, so that penalty isn't largely an issue.  As to fading it is a problem particularly early on. But that sacrifice data chip quality exists, so in the long term fading isn't going to a major issue. 

That all said I do think Overdrive on limbs has some meaningful advantages, Capacity is very flexible and will let overdrive effect a fairly large selection of devices, some of those device GMs are not at all going to be used have scaling. Thus Overdrive while inefficient is also going to be pretty flexible. Paired with regaining resonance lost to cyberware, all be it fairly slowly is still going to let you take advantage of karma and tech, which magic can only do much more limited fashion. Also Echos while not stunningly strong don't suck ether, a better Pain editor being a good example.

*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Hobbes

  • *
  • Catalyst Demo Team
  • Prime Runner
  • ***
  • Posts: 3078
« Reply #25 on: <03-12-19/2208:04> »
Sprite Sustaining is only Level in Combat Turns, tough to get that going on multiple limbs.  Especially when you have Diagnostics right there as a better choice for your Sprite.  At least for skill checks.  Overdrive is for Wired Reflexes or Move By Wire (IMO).  Diagnostics doesn't do faster. 

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #26 on: <03-12-19/2242:56> »
I think the initiative stuff is pure distraction. Getting big initiative dice gets everyone hot and bothered, but it's trap, even if you solve the repair issue in some useful way. MBW and Wired are both giant essence hogs, far to much to allow your to make any kind real use of resonance.   Once/If you can get a hold of deltaware wired that it might become doable. But short of that, it's not going to you much good.
Limbs are much better targets, with high potential returns, and considerably lower costs and risks.
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

DigitalZombie

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 744
« Reply #27 on: <03-13-19/1537:41> »
Btw have you made any plans for your capacity in those limbs?
RAW I believe you can overdrive your armour ratings.
Naturally also your agility and strength, but what Else? Sensor array? Radar?

Marcus

  • *
  • Prime Runner
  • *****
  • Posts: 2802
  • Success always demands a greater effort.
« Reply #28 on: <03-13-19/1619:25> »
I gave it some thought, for the sake sanity, stuff clearly needs a rating and some kind of progression based upon that rating. This percludes a certain number of things cyber weapons for example. But that does leave a heck of a lot option. Radar, microwave, various perception, noise causing and noise canceling. Medkits, commlinks, decks,  various types of keyes. Armor is tricky by raw I would say yes but I don't that's rai. I'm sure there's bunch more I haven't  considered.  But that's plenty to be getting along with. And rating 10 or 11 commlinks is good stuff.
« Last Edit: <03-13-19/1622:54> by Marcus »
*Play-by-Post color guide*
Thinking
com
speaking

Ghost Rigger

  • *
  • Omae
  • ***
  • Posts: 539
« Reply #29 on: <03-13-19/2015:38> »
And rating 10 or 11 commlinks is good stuff.
Wait, what? There are commlinks with a rating over 6?
After all you don't send an electrician to fix your leaking toilet.

A Guide to Gridguide