[Mara]

OK..first, I am surprised no-one has started a thread on this yet!
Or was everyone waiting for someone else to?

Anyway...

First, I am glad that I only saw a few bad typos. Much better then previous books, in my
opinion. I loved the little "Basic Shadowrun survival skills, brought to you by DocWagon" section.
Oh that end was brilliant! Also, alot of it is useful to veteran players as well as newbies, considering
how few veteran players in my experience will think to things like, when doing leg work, ask if anyone
else has been asking the same sorts of questions.

The musicians section is kind of neat, though, I have to say that I am surprised the only mention of JetBlack
was in the "lows." Of course, considering we all know he is a) still alive and b) a vampire...well...hey that is
understandable. I have to admit that I found the bands intriguing, and a little fun. Astral Lightning with a spirit
doing a 12 minute drum solo when the mage lost control, or the Troll Jazz singer, Barry Mana(seriously? Talk about
a clever reference there..)

This is, of course, just my very initial impressions of this book. I also liked how Jason seems to have used the commentary
about Caution Tape Girl on the other forums as a great idea for the actual discussion of the nature of the book.

[Wesley Street]

Questions: (or possible errata fodder)

1. What's this "China" place?
Page 56, which China was Ahi a slave to? Page 100, what parts of China do the NPL operate in? Which China does does the CBA operate in?

China is like the US of A. It doesn't exist in Shadowrun. The area is now Shaanxi, the Canton Confederation, Henan, etc. etc. Recommended reading, Shadows of Asia.

2. Regarding CrimeTime:
Page 50:

> it’s not total rumors. Poor bastard has been fed BtLs from the Vory for some time. it was the leash that led Crimetime around to shit gigs, smuggling for the puppet masters. or’zet was his path to break the habit.
> Red anya

Page 142, Red Anya's entry on CrimeTime:

There are essentially two narratives. In one, he is nothing more than a poser and a moneymaking machine for the Vory. He’s actually doubly pro table, because his music and touring makes Hez Music good money, and CrimeTime spends a good portion of his share of the dough on Vory-supplied BTLs and narcotics. In the other narrative, CrimeTime is exactly as tough as he says he is, and he is one the Vory’s most trusted negotiators. When he’s touring, he uses his downtime to make the rounds in whatever city he’s in and works to settle disputes the Vory may have with local individuals and business owners.

It would seem that Red Anya is having difficulty making up her mind as to whether CrimeTime is a beetle head or not. So is he or isn't he?

3. Pirate or independent?
On page 108, we're introduced to Hillary Rodregaz who published an amazing feminist manifesto, Portrait of Woman in the 21st Century. Horizon rejects it though an editor secretly tells her to continue writing as it was amazing. So she went through an independent publisher (who apparently trafficked in stolen intellectual property to subsidize its income, but I think that's beside the point) who distributed it as a freebie. The section says this action was illegal. How, exactly, was publishing something for free (I'm assuming Rodregaz gave the pirate [or are they independent?] publisher permission) illegal? I'm assuming Horizon pressured local governments to ban her work because she rejected them after the fact, but how is what she was doing before that illegal?

[JM_Hardy]

Answers under individual questions.

Questions: (or possible errata fodder)

1. What's this "China" place?
Page 56, which China was Ahi a slave to? Page 100, what parts of China do the NPL operate in? Which China does does the CBA operate in?

China is like the US of A. It doesn't exist in Shadowrun. The area is now Shaanxi, the Canton Confederation, Henan, etc. etc. Recommended reading, Shadows of Asia.

There is no nation called "China" in 2073, but that does not mean people don't use it as a regional designation (note that in baseball, there is an NAL, the North American League, despite the fact that there is no "North America" nation). Ahi might not be clear on where she was precisely when she was rescued, so she uses the regional descriptor

Also, allow me to point out that the author of the sports section was one of the co-writers of the southeast Asia portion of Shadows of Asia, so I'm pretty sure he's aware of that book's existence.

2. Regarding CrimeTime:
Page 50:

> it’s not total rumors. Poor bastard has been fed BtLs from the Vory for some time. it was the leash that led Crimetime around to shit gigs, smuggling for the puppet masters. or’zet was his path to break the habit.
> Red anya

Page 142, Red Anya's entry on CrimeTime:

There are essentially two narratives. In one, he is nothing more than a poser and a moneymaking machine for the Vory. He’s actually doubly pro table, because his music and touring makes Hez Music good money, and CrimeTime spends a good portion of his share of the dough on Vory-supplied BTLs and narcotics. In the other narrative, CrimeTime is exactly as tough as he says he is, and he is one the Vory’s most trusted negotiators. When he’s touring, he uses his downtime to make the rounds in whatever city he’s in and works to settle disputes the Vory may have with local individuals and business owners.

It would seem that Red Anya is having difficulty making up her mind as to whether CrimeTime is a beetle head or not. So is he or isn't he?

When posting a shadowtalk comment, JackPointers generally vocalize their own personal opinions; when writing body text, they often strive to move beyond their own opinions and present more of an overview. In the latter section, Red Anya points out that there are varying opinions about CrimeTime, which is important to know in any overview of a person; in the former section, we see which side of the debate she falls on.

3. Pirate or independent?
On page 108, we're introduced to Hillary Rodregaz who published an amazing feminist manifesto, Portrait of Woman in the 21st Century. Horizon rejects it though an editor secretly tells her to continue writing as it was amazing. So she went through an independent publisher (who apparently trafficked in stolen intellectual property to subsidize its income, but I think that's beside the point) who distributed it as a freebie. The section says this action was illegal. How, exactly, was publishing something for free (I'm assuming Rodregaz gave the pirate [or are they independent?] publisher permission) illegal? I'm assuming Horizon pressured local governments to ban her work because she rejected them after the fact, but how is what she was doing before that illegal?

The fact that the publisher is trafficking in stolen intellectual property is entirely not beside the point. Let's look at the whole text:

She found a publisher who had a profitable line of stolen ebooks that they use to fund their own publications.  They started packaging her book in with bundles of older, similar books. So the savvy book reader looking for an old copy of Tolstoy or Kerouac would be pleasantly surprised to  find they got a bonus copy of something they may well like, and they’d take a look at it.  Through these illegal avenues, Rodregaz built a fan base and eventually started outselling some of her legitimate competitors.

When her books were sold, they were packaged with stolen intellectual property. The selling of the stolen intellectual property is what is referred to as "these illegal avenues."

I'll start an official errata thread for future comments so that I can know when to find them when compilation time comes.

Jason H.

[Wesley Street]

Okay, tabling the whole China thing and Red Anya's inconsistencies... Leo Tolstoy's works have been in the public domain since 1880. A person can't steal or own them. Horizon can't swoop down and purchase the original Dawn of the Dead, Beethoven, Newton's formulas or the English language and control their distribution. There's literally no Intellectual Property so there's nothing to buy. The practice of a pirate organization "illegally selling" a Tolstoy/Rodregaz bundle doesn't even make sense.

[JM_Hardy]

Okay, tabling the whole China thing and Red Anya's inconsistencies... Leo Tolstoy's works have been in the public domain since 1880. A person can't steal or own them. Horizon can't swoop down and purchase the original Dawn of the Dead, Beethoven, Newton's formulas or the English language and control their distribution. There's literally no Intellectual Property so there's nothing to buy. The practice of a pirate organization "illegally selling" a Tolstoy/Rodregaz bundle doesn't even make sense.

You're assuming the copyright law in the Sixth World, along with its definitions of public domain, remain consistent with today's law. Given that RL corporations are currently working to change copyright law to benefit themselves, including changing when things enter the public domain, it is quite rational to think that when corporations have far more control over the law than they do now, they would radically change or even eliminate public domain definitions to benefit them. That is, the practice described in Attitude doesn't make sense under our laws, but time and again the Sixth World shows that it doesn't operate under our current legal structure.

Jason H.

[raben-aas]

Leo Tolstoy's works have been in the public domain since 1880. A person can't steal or own them. Horizon can't swoop down and purchase the original Dawn of the Dead, Beethoven, Newton's formulas or the English language and control their distribution.

Afer two Matrix crashes and countless new laws and in a world VERY different from our own, who is to say?

(No I didn't write that section, but I'm quite amazed how people judge the Sixth World entirely from our RL point of view and "know" what "can't be done". If there's another SR book that established that Horizon can't do this, OK: breach of canon. Otherwise: Maybe strange, but certainly not stranger than a dragon as owner of a multinational corporation).

AAS

[Crimsondude]

Holy crap! You mean the Matrix created by corporations is different from the open-standard Internet? What the eff?

You're assuming the copyright law in the Sixth World, along with its definitions of public domain, remain consistent with today's law. Given that RL corporations are currently working to change copyright law to benefit themselves, including changing when things enter the public domain

Not even that, but the Supreme Court is likely to rule in favor of a 17-year old law that allows rights-owners to take back works from the public domain.

[Wesley Street]

Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.

[FastJack]

Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.

I really think you're mis-understanding the situation listed in the book. The publisher in question was using stolen ebooks to fund their legitimate publications. The way I read it isn't that they are listed as illegal because they are publishing public works, but that they are listed as illegal because they are selling another publisher's version of that ebook.

Let's look at it this way. If I record "Happy Birthday" and sell it over the net, I'm fine. But if I get a copy of Elvis Presley singing "Happy Birthday" and sell it over the net, *his* estate will come after me.

Horizon didn't go after her because they claimed they owned the works of Tolstoy or Kerouac. They went after her because she rejected their offer and decided to target her distribution channels in retribution.

[JM_Hardy]

Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.

They don't control all of the public domain--all we're saying is that various corporations have taken many works out of the public domain. Given that they are trying to do so now, it hardly seems to be a radical shift that they would succeed in doing so when their political power is greatly amplified.

Jason H.

[CanRay]

Makes sense.  Public Domain laws differ from Country to Country even.

For example, in the British Commonwealth you can legally download all of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's works.  In the USA, some of his later works are still covered under copyright and cannot be legally had.  (Which is hilarious, as a lot of his works were stolen and published in the USA without his permission or even knowledge!).

[raben-aas]

Let's look at it this way. If I record "Happy Birthday" and sell it over the net, I'm fine.

Actually, no. AFAIK "Happy Birthday" belongs to Warner Music:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Happy_Birthday_to_You

How's that for "impossible", "they can't do that" and "public domain"?

AAS

[Crimsondude]

Is it Warner? All I know is they are litigious bastards.

Also the thing about who built the Matrix was a side thread. Context: get some.

[Grinder]

Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.

They don't control all of the public domain--all we're saying is that various corporations have taken many works out of the public domain. Given that they are trying to do so now

Which ones would that be?

[JM_Hardy]

Who built/controls the Matrix isn't relevant. Stating that Horizon controls the public domain is a breach of canon and a pretty radical campaign setting shift without foreshadowing or precedent.

They don't control all of the public domain--all we're saying is that various corporations have taken many works out of the public domain. Given that they are trying to do so now

Which ones would that be?

Golan v. Holder is a case were plaintiffs are suing, saying it is unconstitutional to bring works that had been in the public domain out of the public domain. The basic issue is the in the United States, some foreign works had been in the public domain even though they were still under copyright in the country where they were produced. In 1995, the United States agreed to retroactively apply the requirements of the Berne Convention, meaning it would honor foreign copyrights. This would require removing some works from the public domain. A number of artists sued to keep this from happening. The suit directly names the U.S. attorney general (it's been going on long enough that the names Ashcroft, Gonzales, and Holder have all held the defendant spot over time), but a friend of the court brief has been filed on behalf of several organizations representing publishers and media distributors, including the RIAA and the MPAA, supporting the defense.

I'll also note that while it didn't involve removing works from the public domain, the Copyright Term Extension Act of 1998 extended copyright, thus keeping many things from entering the public domain sooner. Due to Disney's extensive support of the act, it is often called the "Mickey Mouse Protection Act."

Jason H.