[Raven Runner]

So my runner needs a commlink for runs, this is separate from the one that broadcasts my fake SIN.  I'm trying to figure out what to get and thinking something with a high firewall would be good, I don't know the tech rules to well, so I'm trying to figure out how to increase my commlinks firewall and all I'm seeing is a table titled program cost and availability, which has the price for system and firewall, both of which seem much more expensive than the stock operating systems in the gear chapter, would this be in place of a stock OS or work like a bonus? And can you have a firewall that is higher than your system or is it limited the way programs are? All in all the rules here seem fuzzy and complex at best.

Can some one explain this for me?

Raven

[JustADude]

I believe the general consensus is that Firewall is part of the Operating System, therefore not limited by System like a standard Program. You will, of course, find people who disagree.

As for the Firewall / System upgrades; there are two ways to go about it.

First; many GMs will (especially at CGen) let you just build a custom commlink and OS "from scratch", simply buying the modules at the ratings you want, to represent either a piece of home-brew kit or some model not listed on the table. This is, in most (but not all) situations, cheaper than buying the listed Commlink + OS options with the same combination of stats.

Second; at any time after you have a Commlink you can replace the stock "module" in any category with another module up to two points higher. It can never go more than 2 points above it's original rating, though.

[Lethe]

I agree with Dude, but am too lazy to link to the other thread where it was discussed extensively.
Under "Matrix attributes" it implies that Firewall runs on the Hardware equally to the System - on its own part of the hardware. After all it is supposed to be a real Firewall, not like some crappy personal firewalls you install on your OS nowadays ;-)

I also prefer custom commlink builts! The upgrade by 2 points rule seems not well-thought-out.

[JustADude]

I also prefer custom commlink builts! The upgrade by 2 points rule seems not well-thought-out.

It makes some sense, if you assume there are bits in a Commlink that aren't considered part of the four Hardware Modules, to which the Modules get attached.

Eventually, when upgrading an existing machine in the real world, you reach a bottleneck where certain components (usually the Motherboard) just can't accept the higher end hardware, or can't make full use of it even if they have the slots/ports to physically accept the device.

[CanRay]

Considering some of the cases I've seen, JustADude has it right!

Power Supply right over the expansion slots, so nothing fits in them.  Or over the RAM slots so only one stick fits.   

Yeah, a custom CommLink case and components are the way to go for a high-end 'Link, but it'll get you noticed.  Whereas if you have a iLink from the IBM-A (Industrial Business Machines-Apple Corporation) store, you blend in with all the other trendy Wageslaves that buy what the 'Trid tells them to.

That's why you have multiple 'Links. 

[All4BigGuns]

I believe the general consensus is that Firewall is part of the Operating System, therefore not limited by System like a standard Program. You will, of course, find people who disagree.

As for the Firewall / System upgrades; there are two ways to go about it.

First; many GMs will (especially at CGen) let you just build a custom commlink and OS "from scratch", simply buying the modules at the ratings you want, to represent either a piece of home-brew kit or some model not listed on the table. This is, in most (but not all) situations, cheaper than buying the listed Commlink + OS options with the same combination of stats.

Second; at any time after you have a Commlink you can replace the stock "module" in any category with another module up to two points higher. It can never go more than 2 points above it's original rating, though.

Emphasis mine.

Holy drek! I looked up those costs to be sure, but damn. It is cheaper. I did a quick calculation and discovered that doing this to build a custom comm/OS combo 'from scratch' you could get a device equivalent to a Battle Buddy Basic from War! for half the price. Maybe I'll start doing that. *goes to see if Chummer has a 'custom comm link' option like the 'custom OS' option*

[CanRay]

Of course, $10,000 hammers, remember?

Typically if you know what you're doing, and wait for sales, you can build a case from scratch cheaper than getting one at a major chain with a name-brand rig.  But you don't get the warranty with it either, for what that's worth.

Custom making the OS, OTOH, well, that's like having your own flavor of Linux.

[Kat9]

Of course, $10,000 hammers, remember?

Typically if you know what you're doing, and wait for sales, you can build a case from scratch cheaper than getting one at a major chain with a name-brand rig.  But you don't get the warranty with it either, for what that's worth.

Custom making the OS, OTOH, well, that's like having your own flavor of Linux.

That's so nerdy...or shall I say nerd-eh?

/runslikehell

[CanRay]

Yes, run from the fearsome Canadian.  Rawr.  OK, I did the monster thing, can I get paid and go back to my trailer?

[Sentinemodo]

And as mentioned not all agree. I don't for example in my games.
Firewall is a listed in programs and as such is limited by System (which in turn is limited by Response).

I don't allow custom links being built from scratch. You buy a shelf link and you can upgrade a module by as much as +2.

[Halancar]

And as mentioned not all agree. I don't for example in my games.
Firewall is a listed in programs and as such is limited by System (which in turn is limited by Response).

Is it ? In the wireless chapter it is listed among the Matrix attributes, not the Programs. In fact, it is listed before the System rating (granted, that's just alphabetical order at work). No reference is made to the System or the Response, nor any reference to the Firewall in their description. The word program is never used to describe it. It also runs on the commlink and the commlink only, and cannot be loaded into a persona or an agent like programs, or run on other nodes you have accessed.

Granted, in the gear section it is in the same table as the programs, and the table is labeled Matrix Programs, but then System is there too, and so are autosofts, which are not Matrix Programs. I believe that table is just mislabeled.

For me, the Firewall is just so important in a Wireless world than it runs independently of the System, possibly in part on its own dedicated hardware... It is not limited by System, nor does it count toward the number of programs running before the Response drops (otherwise, how could a Meta Link run anything ? Response of 1, if the Firewall is a program then it must count as the one program it can run without having the Response drop, any attempt to run anything else will drop the Response to 0 )

[All4BigGuns]

I think we need a response from one of the Powers-That-Be that made the game system here to tell us how they intended things to work. Had a talk with another person in my group who GMs and he said that he thinks it's a program. Myself, I can see the validity in both claims, but I will likely rule the other way until an official word is given on the matter, but I try to keep the game fun and give the PCs the advantage they should have. They are the "heroes" of the game and thus should be 'better' than the opposition. Challenge is all well and good, but it isn't fun for your character to be weaker than the enemies.

[Sentinemodo]

And as mentioned not all agree. I don't for example in my games.
Firewall is a listed in programs and as such is limited by System (which in turn is limited by Response).

Is it ? In the wireless chapter it is listed among the Matrix attributes, not the Programs. In fact, it is listed before the System rating (granted, that's just alphabetical order at work). No reference is made to the System or the Response, nor any reference to the Firewall in their description. The word program is never used to describe it. It also runs on the commlink and the commlink only, and cannot be loaded into a persona or an agent like programs, or run on other nodes you have accessed.

Granted, in the gear section it is in the same table as the programs, and the table is labeled Matrix Programs, but then System is there too, and so are autosofts, which are not Matrix Programs. I believe that table is just mislabeled.

For me, the Firewall is just so important in a Wireless world than it runs independently of the System, possibly in part on its own dedicated hardware... It is not limited by System, nor does it count toward the number of programs running before the Response drops (otherwise, how could a Meta Link run anything ? Response of 1, if the Firewall is a program then it must count as the one program it can run without having the Response drop, any attempt to run anything else will drop the Response to 0 )

1. FIrewall is described as software. Software is a program to me. and as you noted it is listed in table of programs.
2. MetaLink can run ergonomic programs. then again it isn't meant to be running programs, just be used for communication.

Nobody has to agree, it's just the way I interpret the rules in my games. I bumped in only to confirm that like Dude posted there are people who disagree.

[beowulf_of_wa]

SR4A pg 221, bottom right column, Firewall is a Matrix attribute of the commlink.

[All4BigGuns]

SR4A pg 221, bottom right column, Firewall is a Matrix attribute of the commlink.

There is that, however, the opponents of Firewall not being limited by System and Response argue that because it is software means that it is in fact a program (just not one that has access to the program options). This is why I say we need an actual official response as to the intent.