[Michael Chandra]

Exactly. You.

[samoth]

Right...anything anyone posts is their opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong.  It's good to see things from others' perspectives so you can reevaluate your own thoughts.  For example, I'm interested in hearing other's feelings on fire modes to see if it changes my "only Automatics Skill guns with full auto" train of thought since there are many, many guns I don't even look at as options.

[Michael Chandra]

There's a big difference between stating your personal preference and stating your opinion in a way that you cannot understand someone else would ever think otherwise. I'm glad you're finally showing an understanding that it's a matter of personal preference.

That said, I'm a number person myself so won't come with arguments. The way I see it, the arguments I use are in clear sight for everyone, namely rounds of fire vs hitting chance benefits.

[Csjarrat]

From the 5e book,  pg 420 "concealing gear"

+2 SMG, machine pistol with folding stock extended, medkit, small drone, extendable baton (extended), stun baton

+6 Katana, monosword, shotgun, assault rifle, sport rifle, crossbow

That +/- 4 swing in conceal-ability is pretty much why you'd use an SMG over an Assault rifle. They are both capable of FA in most cases, do decent damage, are pretty accurate on the most part, and you can offset lower AP by filling it full of APDS.
Biggest thing for me though is that you can sling an SMG over your back, stick on your lined coat over the top and you're at 0 modifiers to hide that gun. anyone decent at palming is gonna get past checkpoints with ease. try that with an AR :-)

[samoth]

There's a big difference between stating your personal preference and stating your opinion in a way that you cannot understand someone else would ever think otherwise. I'm glad you're finally showing an understanding that it's a matter of personal preference.

That said, I'm a number person myself so won't come with arguments. The way I see it, the arguments I use are in clear sight for everyone, namely rounds of fire vs hitting chance benefits.

I am asking honestly and curiously, can you lay out your thinking regarding rounds of fire vs. hitting chance?  Do you have stats that back up probability of Accuracy vs. defender penalites, for example?  Like I said, I truly do want to see from others' point of view - maybe I should preface every post I make here with that

[Michael Chandra]

Accuracy probabilities are easy, I got my Accuracy Tables for that, which state that the chance to score X+ hits with Y dice (so the chance X-1 as limit is insufficient) as a 1:X odds.

As for hitting chances with offensive dice and bursts, I posted those before in a debate where someone argued having recoil automatically reset each IP wouldn't matter balance-wise, and not really that interested in throwing a lot of numbers around.

If you want to compare odds with limits, go to http://www.anydice.com and use this:
output [highest of 0 and [lowest of 7 and 14d{0,0,1}]-6d{0,0,1}]

Here 7 is the Accuracy, 14 is the offensive dice and 6 is the defensive (after penalties) dice. The result shows you what odds at what amount of net hits you have. You can change those amounts to compare different burst-types and different dicepools.

[samoth]

Thank you, very interesting.  Do you have a set Limit for Phys/Social/Mental that seems to be the sweet spot, and weapon accuracy as well?  At what point do you reach diminishing returns?

[CanRay]

As one of my Mr. Johnson's puts it, "The right tools for the right job.  Now, which tools, I mean Shadowrunners, are available?"

[PiXeL01]

Would adding ap-1 to SMGs be unbalanced?
My reasoning is that machine  pistols fire light pistol ammo while SMGs fire the equivalent to heavy pistol ammo.
Adding ap -1 would bring SMGs closer being the between machine pistols and assault rifles.

If others have suggested this already then please forgive me for repeating it without quotations.

[Kanly]

I don't think they fire heavy pistol ammo b/c those are really large calibers; but the -1 would put them between AR's a MP's. I'm not sure if it would be balanced or not tho.

[Namikaze]

Would adding ap-1 to SMGs be unbalanced?
My reasoning is that machine  pistols fire light pistol ammo while SMGs fire the equivalent to heavy pistol ammo.
Adding ap -1 would bring SMGs closer being the between machine pistols and assault rifles.

If others have suggested this already then please forgive me for repeating it without quotations.

From a rules perspective, I don't think it would be unbalanced.  Logistically though, it doesn't make sense.  Most SMGs in the world fire smaller-caliber ammunition (9mm for example).  Heavy pistols generally fire calibers like .45ACP, which is very different.  There's nothing to say that Run and Gun might not have rules for making this kind of modification to a gun though.  They did something similar in Arsenal with changing the rounds used to high-speed projectiles.

[Niladen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP

A very popular real world submachine gun that uses forty five caliber rounds. It's far from unheard of for SMGs to use heavier rounds.

[Namikaze]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heckler_%26_Koch_UMP

A very popular real world submachine gun that uses forty five caliber rounds. It's far from unheard of for SMGs to use heavier rounds.

Very true.  But also I never said it was unheard of.  Just rare.  The UMP is popular in large part because of the larger-than-average round.  I honestly don't know why this point was brought up at all.  It's not like anyone said something like "all SMGs use 9mm ammunition!" or "there's no such thing as an SMG that fires heavy ammunition!"

[Niladen]

You said that logistically it doesn't make sense. I was just pointing out that it does.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_submachine_guns

That link also lists a number of SMGs and while yes, most of them use smaller caliber rounds, quite a few of them use heavier than nine millimeter, some even used scaled down assault rifle ammunition. It's far from rare.

[Namikaze]

OMG, this is a stupid point to try to bring up.  I don't know why you would bring up something like this, unless you're trying to get a reaction out of me.  You got your reaction, I'm done.  What I said is accurate, what you said is accurate.  I don't understand this need to try to make your bones on this board by nitpicking.