[Shadowjack]

One thing I always found odd in Shadowrun was Shadowrunners wearing full body armor or military armor. I picture Shadowrunners as wearing street armors like armor jackets or lined coats, that's the way the game is generally portrayed in the artwork in books. But in actual gameplay it is very common to see everyone running around in very heavy armor. As the game progresses, so does the challenge, which draws players towards these exceptional armors. The issue though is the price is very affordable to any experienced Shadowrunner in your typical campaign.

Now, I do realize that you can't simply wear these armors all the time, but in my experience you can often wear them during runs if you are clever about it. It's true that these armors are highly illegal but so are many other things a Shadowrunner typically has.

How do you guys feel about players using these armors? I wouldn't have a problem with it if it wasn't so prevalent.

[Crunch]

I've never seen it in any game I've been in. Like the issues with heavy weapons this largely just comes down to style of play, but in my games Shadowrunners are usually operating in urban environments where walking around in Mil Spec Body Armor, like toting a heavy machine gun or panther cannon, is a good reason to run into additional complications from local law enforcement.

[Mirikon]

Crunch nails it on the head. Part of this is play style, but if your players are rolling around in milspec armor and loaded out for war all the time, law enforcement is going to be VERY interested in them. Even if the 'law enforcement' is the local syndicate.

Something I do (and encourage others to do as well) is have several load-outs. I generally have three to five different setups for armor/weapons, with changes made for what the actual run requires.

Casual - This is what you wear when you're not on the job, or have to blend in with the crowd. Name of the game is to look defended enough to deter random violence, but not drawing law enforcement attention. A lined coat or Urban Adventurer jumpsuit, with a pistol and a melee weapon if my character uses them.

Formal (optional) - When you gotta blend in with high society, etc. Armored clothes, Auctioneer's Business suit, etc. Weapons are again a predator at the heaviest. As far as melee, knucks or something else that can be hidden in a pocket, or possibly a sword or cane if you're awakened. Make heavy use of cover, and run like hell if anything really serious starts, until you can get into your real 'work clothes'.

Working - The stuff you typically take on a run. Lined coat, armored jacket, helmet, assault rifles, shotguns, backup weapons, possibly a couple grenades. Be reasonably prepared for what might happen.

Stealth (Optional) - Lined coat (electrochromatic) or chameleon suit (depending on how you do 'stealth'), silenced firearms and melee weapons. Gecko grip to crawl on ceilings. Surprise attacks, and then slip out of there. Run if you get into any serious trouble.

Wrath of God - This is where the milspec comes in. This is when 'subtle' is not an option, so you go with 'shock and awe'. Heavy armor, heavy weapons, grenades, rockets, explosives, strike hard, strike fast, and get out before HTR shows up.

[martinchaen]

I've tended to go for equipment loadouts like Mirikon presents, though this has changed for me in SRM Season 5 what with Chicago and everything.

For my street sam in Season 5, I'll be using two loadouts; Casual/Formal/Working, and Wrath of God (to steal Mirikon's terms).

The only time I've seen heavy weapons in recent games is in a gang-member type game in the Redmond Barrens, where my Troll ganger got a hold of an LMG and is currently wielding it with impunity.

[Kincaid]

Heavy weapons/armor in the campaigns I've run are essentially unheard of.  The only time in recent memory a character of mine used heavy armor was during the Dragonsong CMPs, which are a bit of a meat grinder.  You attract so much undue attention carrying that stuff around, it's almost never worth it.

EDIT: Mirikon's post reminded me that underbarrel grenade launchers on an Alpha and the semi-concealable grenade launchers are the exceptions.  I've never had a player use a LMG (or heavier) weapon.

[Mirikon]

Well, one of those pistol or bullpup sized grenade launchers is nice to have, especially since you can swap the load to flash-bangs or tear gas if you want, but yeah, most of the time an LMG or higher is not really seen except as drone or vehicle weapons. One thing to mention is that your choice of transport can make a big difference in what you can take with you. Walking or riding a bike? That limits what you can do and not draw attention. Team's piling in a Bulldog? You can bring all the toys.

[Crunch]

A lot of it is environmental as well.

In my games the players tend to live in the shadier end of low class neighborhoods or the barrens, but most valuable corp facilities tend to be in Higher Security Zones.

In my games it goes like this.

Barrens: You want to look protected but not dangerous. Visible light armor, Weapons up to shotgun/sport rifle level and any sort of melee weapon are allowable/desirable. There are no cops to speak of, but MilSpec Armor or heavy weapons may result in the local gang lord ambushing you to steal your gear, or "preemptively" attacking you to stop what must be an invasion of his turf.

Low: There are cops, occasionally, they won't look too close for concealed weapons or inspect licences too minutely. A partially concealed pistol, SMG or sawed off shotgun is probably acceptable, any civilian armor is fine. Mil spec gear, explosions or openly carried gear will garner attention, and if the cops respond in this area they are probably responding hard (you're not getting Officer Bob in his cruiser or a discreet Strato-9 tail, you're either getting nothing or a response team with backup).

Mid: Weapons should definitely be concealed and have good quality licenses. Obvious armor of any kind may make you look out of place and gauche. People who look too threatening/out of place may invite discreet surveillance.

High: Like Mid, but surveillance will be more proactive, SIN/license checks more frequent, and police more likely to respond to "outsiders". If you want to go stacked here you should consider a cover like "Private Security" or "Private Detective" to justify anything that you think the locals might spot.

Luxury: Gated community level security. Most buildings will have Cyber/Weapon/Chem scanners. Astral patrols in addition to physical and drone security. Outside contractors probably have to check in with the contracted Police agency even if totally legit. So if your bodyguard contract is with Knight Errant and your house is in a Lone Star Patrolled Luxury Zone, your bodyguard will probably spend a fair amount of time getting vetted by Lone Star. Anything beyond the most concealable weapon, or the most airtight alibi will attract attention.

[martinchaen]

I'm still struggling with underbarrel grenade launchers being illegal as a reason not to carry an Ares Alpha, but it's just so delicious. Still, concealing one is going to be hard with all the security mooks having (relatively) high perception skills.

[Lysanderz]

Speaking of which, I want my SMG with the short barrel grenade launcher back. GOD I MISS MY APHRODITE IN 5TH

[Shadowjack]

I'm glad to hear that these armors are not the norm. One issue I ran into in the past was acquiring a decent chunk of nuyen and not having much gear I wanted to spend it on. My character was a mystic adept who uses a shotgun and foci to sustain buffs. I didn't want any ware, I had as many good rating foci as I could hold. I had a vehicle and the equipment I needed, all of it didn't cost that much. So I ended up buying military armor, which I wasn't thrilled about but I wanted to buy something as all the other players were doing that. But then everyone got military armor because we could all afford it. Of course, it is powerful and unbalancing versus enemies without it, so the GM had the main villains use it as well. This was a while back, but it felt really odd.

That was the last campaign we played in 4th edition. Mathematically, the price point on military armor is so good that it is one of the best values in the game. So I was concerned that my group might continue to use military armor as a sort of end game armor choice. That's why I decided to make this thread, because I really don't want to see military much or even at all. Your replies have been helpful. I too like the idea of a more traditional style campaign without that kind of armor, although I'm still wondering about guns. Assault cannons, machine guns and sniper rifles, all very deadly and sort of unfair when compared to most other guns in the game. However, they do cost more money, so there is a level of balance. I suppose how serious these weapons would be treated would depend on the area they were used. But at the same time, it's not like pain editors and wired reflexes are difficult to spot, so why wouldn't law enforcement crack down on players using stuff like that as well? I mean, I'm sure they would in some games, but it seems like the people that posted here might be treating the legality of guns differently than ware or foci. I suppose guns are more apparent and thus easier to take action on, but some of the ware has extremely high availability ratings as well and some of it is also forbidden.

The reason I bring this up is I'm planning on starting a new campaign soon and I'm just wondering about how you guys said that heavy weapons were basically never seen in your games. I was a little surprised that no one had used a machine gun, or at least the occasional assault cannon. I mean, when doing a run inside many buildings there are sound proof walls, if you can sneak in an assault rifle, there is a good chance you can sneak in a machine gun. Not to mention how dangerous some runs can be, I'm surprised to see the word 'never' used.

[Crunch]

Pain Editors and Wired Reflexes are actually VERY hard to spot. At most they would have an access point somewhere on the body.

[Mirikon]

Honestly, I've never had so much nuyen that I couldn't think of something to spend it on, even as a mage (which primarily advances through Karma). New fake SINs, moving up in Lifestyle, getting two or three extra lifestyles as safehouses/boltholes, backup weapons tricked out like you like, and so on. I mean, maybe if I had a couple million nuyen, I'd run out of ideas, but I'm not sure.

[Shadowjack]

I agree, Mirikon, but you're essentially buying extras of everything you already have. I always felt it is very odd that the Street Samurai has a nearly endless amount of things to pour money into but characters that primarily advance through karma have much less options. But that's just me. In the campaign I mentioned, the Street Samurai had to spend the most time sifting through books to purchase gear while the other players were done pretty quickly as our options were much more limited.

Regarding Pain Editors and Wired Reflexes, I understand what you mean, but don't you think law enforcement would be able to easily spot people using these kinds of things when they exhibit very unnatural traits such as eating a large amount of lead or moving around at high speeds?

[Mirikon]

Yes, but then the flip side of that is that the mage is always desperate for karma while the sammy can fritter it away.

[Shadowjack]

I always hear people say that but I always lust for more Karma on my Street Samurai as well. Skills and Attributes are still very appealing.