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Help understanding new Martial Arts quality from Arsenal

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Medicineman

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« Reply #15 on: <10-11-10/1536:02> »
If this system combines those three styles...Ouch!
Snake, Tiger, Eagle....?
Only If You're Bruce Lee reincarnated ;)


Shadowrun is no Streetfighter
If you want more Martial Arts ,kombinations ,etc you'll need something else (GURPS, Wu Shu, HKAT,Exalted maybe)
 
with a martial Dance
Medicineman
Meds... You don't want to start in that direction with me! You don't need to be Bruce to combine different styles and be more dangerous than your [Yogi]average bear![/Yogi]

My Dance had no Direction at all

If even I can combine Wing Chun and Aikido ,than (of Course) anybody with a little experience can

@Jokers Question about an "All-encompassing MA"
Jeet Kune Do maybe ?(we would be back to Bruce Lee again :D )

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Medicineman
« Last Edit: <10-11-10/1541:09> by Medicineman »
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Devil

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« Reply #16 on: <10-11-10/1558:07> »
Jeet Kune Do is a blending of styles. It is a "do whatever is effective" martial art. In my opinion it's just a fancy way of referring to a mixed style of fighting.

Glyph

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« Reply #17 on: <10-11-10/1650:04> »
The one change I do like about the martial arts rules, compared to SR3, is that you can combine the bonuses and maneuvers from the different styles.

I am still dubious about martial arts as a specialization, though.  Unarmed combat is another name for  martial arts.  It's like having a specialization of "edged" for the blades skill.  I tend to allow it, since unarmed combat requires such an investment in skills, qualities, etc.  But for any GM who thinks it is too broad of a specialization, I would recommend replacing the martial arts specialization with "striking".  So martial artists would have to choose whether to specialize in striking, blocking, or subdual combat.

Critias

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« Reply #18 on: <10-11-10/1847:08> »
Many GMs allow the super-broad suggested Specializations on things like "Martial Arts" for Unarmed
(for Me )Each and every MA is its own Specialisation; Wing Chun, Tae Kwon Do, Crane Style Kung Fu,Savate....
(even Tiger Kung Fu from Snake in the Eagles Shadow (Se ying diu sau -original title) is its own Specialisation)

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Medicineman
The problem there is folks can then get nitpicky about when their specialization does (or doesn't) help.  There are some arts out there that folks will argue you always get it, where others (like a guy who takes Boxing or Wrestling) where there's a very clear cut time when it will or won't apply.

Which arts do people say you always get a bonus for? I can't think of any all-encompassing martial arts, but I don't have really extensive knowledge of many styles.
Krav Maga borrows from striking and grappling arts, as does the fictional Sioux Wildcat (so any time they're doing anything, they could argue they get their bonus, right?).  What does a Carromeleg fighter look like, and when would he get his extra dice if he specialized that way?  What is the functional difference between a Savateur, an American Kickboxer, and a Muay Thai fighter, in Shadowrun? 

In a game where combat is as abstract as it is in Shadowrun, I don't think adding layers upon layers of specificity is going to be a big help.  Toss in the fact that some folks know more about martial arts than others, combine it with the fact that some martial arts claim to be able to do more than other martial arts...and I just see a "realism" versus "game balance" conflict, brewing.
Since the game kinda specifies that there are two levels of specialization for Krav have the player spend the points to be specialized both ways. or just one way or the other (armed/unarmed).
Where are you getting armed/unarmed from, in a conversation specifically about Unarmed Combat specializations?

Kontact

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« Reply #19 on: <10-11-10/2358:57> »
What does a Carromeleg fighter look like, and when would he get his extra dice if he specialized that way?

I've always liked to think of it like Bartitsu - the gentleman's elf's martial art.

Devil

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« Reply #20 on: <10-12-10/0041:45> »
That sounds awesome. Does anyone still teach Bartitsu?

Critias

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« Reply #21 on: <10-12-10/0152:43> »
What does a Carromeleg fighter look like, and when would he get his extra dice if he specialized that way?

I've always liked to think of it like Bartitsu - the gentleman's elf's martial art.
I've seldom had a concrete mental image of it, despite it being a common occurence on my character sheets.  Most of my guys who've used it have had other martial arts, as well (when I play a combat guy, I play a combat guy), so I've mostly described the Carromeleg as a state of mind, then their actions and attacks as appropriate for their other art.

The problem with it is that it's long been described as a mental thing, full of formal stances, quasi-mystical levels of balance and focus, and that sort of thing (all in Sperethiel, so you can be plenty Fourth World and exotic if you want).  Stat-wise, it used to be the exact same as Capoeira, meaning you could -- if you wanted -- describe it as full of wild attacks, big circular motions, strange and unpredictable stances, with lots of flexibility and balance.  Also, though, I've always kept in mind that the Tir Peace Force has mandatory service and characters have often been described as getting their Carromeleg from the service, which gives me a more brutal, efficient, easily-taught and very instinctive, Krav Maga or Muay Thai sort of mental image (very natural movements, direct attacks, etc).

In the end, it's one of the games most "make of it what you will" flavors.  Which is awesome to the for-fun writer in me, but frustrating to the stickler for canon.

Medicineman

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« Reply #22 on: <10-12-10/0340:44> »
Unarmed combat is another name for  martial arts.
ImO it stands for Brawling.
If you want a special style(Boxing,Karate,etc) thats what the Specialisation is for

with a specialized Dance
Medicineman
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Usda Beph

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« Reply #23 on: <10-12-10/0944:53> »

Where are you getting armed/unarmed from, in a conversation specifically about Unarmed Combat specializations?
True but Mag gets perks for being armed. I commented on the specific style so, the practicioner is just as adept with as he is without a weapon. In this scenario does the practioner get Spec bonus for weapons attacks if he's specialized as a martial artist or vice versa?

Quote
Krav Maga’s strength lies in its adaptability
and focus on dealing with opponents armed with pistols or
other firearms, both when the Krav Maga practitioner is armed
and when he is unarmed
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Critias

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« Reply #24 on: <10-12-10/1531:46> »

Where are you getting armed/unarmed from, in a conversation specifically about Unarmed Combat specializations?
True but Mag gets perks for being armed. I commented on the specific style so, the practicioner is just as adept with as he is without a weapon. In this scenario does the practioner get Spec bonus for weapons attacks if he's specialized as a martial artist or vice versa?

Quote
Krav Maga’s strength lies in its adaptability
and focus on dealing with opponents armed with pistols or
other firearms, both when the Krav Maga practitioner is armed
and when he is unarmed
No, because he's only specializing in Unarmed Combat (Krav Maga).  He can certainly describe his karma or BP expenditures into Clubs and Blades as "Yeah, my buddy that's teaching me Krav Maga showed me some new tricks with stun batons and combat knives" as a fluff correlation, but there's absolutely no crunch relationship, there.  You're talking about several different active skills, so how could a specialty in one grant a bonus with another?  This is actually pretty much what I was talking about, as one of the issues that will arise from using the fluff descriptors -- or real life knowledge -- of a martial art.

The "adaptability" you gain by Krav Maga, "both when the...practitioner is armed and when he is unarmed" is only represented by whatever Krav Maga Qualities he has purchased (like the ever-popular ability to draw a weapon quickly, which is obviously a help when you're armed).  The most rational, logical, safe, bet when dabbling in gaming rules is to totally ignore the fluff attached to something, and focus only on the rules. 

Glyph

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« Reply #25 on: <10-12-10/1725:53> »
To sow a bit of confusion into the topic, the rules do mention the option of taking the martial arts specialization for weapons (such as blades/escrima, for example) - but you still need to take a separate specialization for each skill.  Note that you don't have to be specialized in martial arts in every skill that benefits from a maneuver or advantage.  You have have blades/knives, but still get the benefit if you have the disarm maneuver.  Likewise, you can have pistols with a specialization in semi-automatics, but still get the advantages of taking the Firefight martial arts quality.

Bradd

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« Reply #26 on: <10-13-10/0340:15> »
Yeah, for example my girlfriend's adept uses Blades (Kenjutsu +2). The specialization applies only to nihonto (traditional Japanese swords and combat knives). You could also take Clubs (Kenjutsu +2) if you wanted to include boken (wooden practice blades).

Devil

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« Reply #27 on: <10-13-10/1406:45> »
I find it slightly bothersome that a bokken uses the club skill and a sword uses a blade skill. I mean...bokkens are used to train sword skills... there isn't much of a difference in how you use them. some of the skill from one should definitely apply to the other. No system is perfect though, I guess.

Maybe taking the close combat skill group is the closest thing. Personally though, I'd make a bokken count as a blade or club.
« Last Edit: <10-13-10/1410:55> by Joker »

Bradd

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« Reply #28 on: <10-13-10/1711:39> »
Yeah, I find the bokken thing kinda screwy myself, although I can rationalize it. I guess it's the difference between using it as a practice weapon (Blades) or as a lethal weapon (Clubs).

Lansdren

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« Reply #29 on: <10-14-10/0429:00> »
That sounds awesome. Does anyone still teach Bartitsu?

Yep they do, but depends where you from I took a class in Wales (was there for a combat thing) from a guy who teaches in Surrey (south of England).

The cane work it nasty if you do it right there is a whole thing about the striking point coming out from below the field of vision and using body torsion (sps) to build up stricking force.
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